Comments on: Spare the Rod. Spoil the Child. http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/ The Blog of Donny Pauling: former porn producer, changed by Grace and Love... Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:50:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: YLF http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-765 YLF Sat, 29 Dec 2007 04:16:38 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-765 All parents that spank thier children are child beaters. All child beaters deserve the death penalty. All parents that spank thier children are child beaters. All child beaters deserve the death penalty.

]]> By: Ray http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-764 Ray Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:21:32 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-764 A second comment.... why is it that these days people are so highly opposed to *physical* corrections, when a psychological one can be as bad or worse? To explain what I mean, let me give an example. My friend Brian hangs out with a group of people that includes a married couple, John and Sue. John treats Sue horribly. We were on a hike and she was having breathing problems. John said, "she's fine", told her to stop slowing every done and turned his back on her. John will insult and belittle her. I asked Brian, have you ever talked to John about the way he treats Sue? He said no. I said, if John hit Sue, would you do something? Oh, of course, he said. My point is, there is nothing wrong with physical corrections per se. A spanking might be less painful than no internet access for a week. The question to ask is whether it's a matter of correcting the child's bad behavior or is the child being abused. A parent can spank or use the strap without being abusive. And a parent can be very abusive without ever laying a hand on the child. A second comment…. why is it that these days people are so highly opposed to *physical* corrections, when a psychological one can be as bad or worse? To explain what I mean, let me give an example. My friend Brian hangs out with a group of people that includes a married couple, John and Sue. John treats Sue horribly. We were on a hike and she was having breathing problems. John said, “she’s fine”, told her to stop slowing every done and turned his back on her. John will insult and belittle her. I asked Brian, have you ever talked to John about the way he treats Sue? He said no. I said, if John hit Sue, would you do something? Oh, of course, he said. My point is, there is nothing wrong with physical corrections per se. A spanking might be less painful than no internet access for a week. The question to ask is whether it’s a matter of correcting the child’s bad behavior or is the child being abused. A parent can spank or use the strap without being abusive. And a parent can be very abusive without ever laying a hand on the child.

]]> By: Ray http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-763 Ray Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:52:57 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-763 It's great that your son is so well behaved. However, it doesn't mean that your way of raising him is right for every child. Children are different and they require different types of corrections. For some a spanking is needed to get the point across. I was a child that, like your son, wanted to please adults. If they asked me to do something, I'd do it. My brother was the opposite. He needed tough love. He didn't have much self control or desire to please and got into every kind of trouble. In retrospect he has told my parents that they weren't hard enough on him. For some children, pleasing adults simply isn't enough motivation. Don't generalize from one case what is best for every child. It’s great that your son is so well behaved. However, it doesn’t mean that your way of raising him is right for every child. Children are different and they require different types of corrections. For some a spanking is needed to get the point across. I was a child that, like your son, wanted to please adults. If they asked me to do something, I’d do it. My brother was the opposite. He needed tough love. He didn’t have much self control or desire to please and got into every kind of trouble. In retrospect he has told my parents that they weren’t hard enough on him. For some children, pleasing adults simply isn’t enough motivation. Don’t generalize from one case what is best for every child.

]]> By: Donna http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-762 Donna Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:47:34 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-762 Hey, I just read your article. You make a good point, however you also appear to have only one child. You may find that your next child is nothing like Caden. My older sister, younger brother and I were disciplined growing up. While our parents definately weren't adversed to spanking us, they did try to attain the desired behavior without spanking. My younger brother and I were the types of children who simply knowing we had disappointed our parents was more of a punishment to us than grounding us or spanking....him moreso than I. I remember when he was about 3 or so, he just wouldn't stay in bed even though it was quite late....both of us have ADHD and bedtime has always been a bit of a struggle. Anyway our mom told him very calmly "you need to stay in this bed for the rest of the night. Don't get out of bed again until morning." The next morning he had wet the bed and Mom asked him "didn't you know you had to go potty" since he was potty trained by then and usually was good at getting up to go at night if needed, and he very innocently said "yes, but you told me not to get out of bed again until morning." There had been no threat of punishment....no yelling, and no fear on my brother's part. Simply a child wanting to obey, but a bit confused about what the instructions meant (he's in his 20's now and still has a tendency to take everyting someone says litterally). I wasn't quite as quick to want to obey, but I did come along. One thing my dad did do was to always make sure that we understood exactly why we couldn't do something, or why something needed to be done. If it was a bad program on TV, he would say to turn it off, but once it was off, he'd make sure that we understood why that program wasn't allowed. That went a long way with me as a child, but I still felt the effect of his belt a few times, but those were my fault as my dad only ever spanked any of us for three things: 1) Lying. There was no warning with this one. 2) Deliberate disobediance (when we knew what we were to do and CHOSE not to do it) 3) repeat offenses after we've been told what we should do, and why. Our older sister was nothing like us, she continued to be spanked up until she was 16 (mostly for repeat offenses and deliberate disobediance)and finally decided to try things our parent's way. I think my last spanking was probably delieverd sometime when I was 8 or 9, and my brother.....I don't think he's been spanked since he was 4 or so. This wasn't the result of our parents changing the rules or how they responded to us...but it was the result of us children and how we responded to the rules and to our dad talking to us about the rules. A friend of mine often jokes that my brother and I probably watched what happened with our sister and made up our minds that we weren't going to be put in that position. Also my dad was never abusive with spanking. They were always done in our bedrooms so there was privacy. And prior to every spanking, dad would talk with us, remind us why we were being spanked, and offer us the chance to offer any explanation that we thought might change his mind about the punishment (I actually succeeded at this once, and only once when I was late comming home. As it wasn't the first time, I was going to be spanked, but I told my dad [the truth] that the chain on my bike had broken and I had to walk home rather than ride my bike, thus it took longer. There was no punishment, just a really short talk about perhaps I didn't want to cut my timming quite that close in the future). As for me, when I have kids I will do what works for them. In my own family growing up I have seen that not every kid NEEDS to be spanked to be compliant with the rules....and not every kid will respond to only talking / using logic...and some are right in the middle, wanting to do good, but not able to resist doing wrong without a "reminder". So I can't say that I'll absolutely never spank my children, and I can't say that spanking is the only right form of discipline. Hey, I just read your article. You make a good point, however you also appear to have only one child. You may find that your next child is nothing like Caden.

My older sister, younger brother and I were disciplined growing up. While our parents definately weren’t adversed to spanking us, they did try to attain the desired behavior without spanking. My younger brother and I were the types of children who simply knowing we had disappointed our parents was more of a punishment to us than grounding us or spanking….him moreso than I. I remember when he was about 3 or so, he just wouldn’t stay in bed even though it was quite late….both of us have ADHD and bedtime has always been a bit of a struggle. Anyway our mom told him very calmly “you need to stay in this bed for the rest of the night. Don’t get out of bed again until morning.” The next morning he had wet the bed and Mom asked him “didn’t you know you had to go potty” since he was potty trained by then and usually was good at getting up to go at night if needed, and he very innocently said “yes, but you told me not to get out of bed again until morning.” There had been no threat of punishment….no yelling, and no fear on my brother’s part. Simply a child wanting to obey, but a bit confused about what the instructions meant (he’s in his 20’s now and still has a tendency to take everyting someone says litterally).

I wasn’t quite as quick to want to obey, but I did come along. One thing my dad did do was to always make sure that we understood exactly why we couldn’t do something, or why something needed to be done. If it was a bad program on TV, he would say to turn it off, but once it was off, he’d make sure that we understood why that program wasn’t allowed. That went a long way with me as a child, but I still felt the effect of his belt a few times, but those were my fault as my dad only ever spanked any of us for three things: 1) Lying. There was no warning with this one. 2) Deliberate disobediance (when we knew what we were to do and CHOSE not to do it) 3) repeat offenses after we’ve been told what we should do, and why.

Our older sister was nothing like us, she continued to be spanked up until she was 16 (mostly for repeat offenses and deliberate disobediance)and finally decided to try things our parent’s way.

I think my last spanking was probably delieverd sometime when I was 8 or 9, and my brother…..I don’t think he’s been spanked since he was 4 or so. This wasn’t the result of our parents changing the rules or how they responded to us…but it was the result of us children and how we responded to the rules and to our dad talking to us about the rules. A friend of mine often jokes that my brother and I probably watched what happened with our sister and made up our minds that we weren’t going to be put in that position.

Also my dad was never abusive with spanking. They were always done in our bedrooms so there was privacy. And prior to every spanking, dad would talk with us, remind us why we were being spanked, and offer us the chance to offer any explanation that we thought might change his mind about the punishment (I actually succeeded at this once, and only once when I was late comming home. As it wasn’t the first time, I was going to be spanked, but I told my dad [the truth] that the chain on my bike had broken and I had to walk home rather than ride my bike, thus it took longer. There was no punishment, just a really short talk about perhaps I didn’t want to cut my timming quite that close in the future).

As for me, when I have kids I will do what works for them. In my own family growing up I have seen that not every kid NEEDS to be spanked to be compliant with the rules….and not every kid will respond to only talking / using logic…and some are right in the middle, wanting to do good, but not able to resist doing wrong without a “reminder”. So I can’t say that I’ll absolutely never spank my children, and I can’t say that spanking is the only right form of discipline.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-761 Anonymous Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:16:46 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-761 People who quote the Bible to justify hitting other people are ignoring everything that we have learned about child development and parenting since the time of Solomon. Besides, Why would anyone take parenting advice from solomon: He got pleasure from the torture of people. Besides, according to many Christians, the suggested law of the old testiment no longer needs to be upheld. This is why we frown upon the stoning of people and why we can eat pork. So why do the same Christians advocate spanking? I'll tell you why. It is because they are obsessed with control. (Like James Dobson, and other's like him ) Obviously, they have a problem, but can't fathom the reality of their problem. There is nothing loving about hitting or causing someone else to have pain. <br />From, Liam_Turley@hotmail.com People who quote the Bible to justify hitting other people are ignoring everything that we have learned about child development and parenting since the time of Solomon. Besides, Why would anyone take parenting advice from solomon: He got pleasure from the torture of people. Besides, according to many Christians, the suggested law of the old testiment no longer needs to be upheld. This is why we frown upon the stoning of people and why we can eat pork. So why do the same Christians advocate spanking? I’ll tell you why. It is because they are obsessed with control. (Like James Dobson, and other’s like him ) Obviously, they have a problem, but can’t fathom the reality of their problem. There is nothing loving about hitting or causing someone else to have pain.
From, Liam_Turley@hotmail.com

]]> By: Daniel Mendezwww.myspace.com/broadcastpraise http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-760 Daniel Mendezwww.myspace.com/broadcastpraise Tue, 02 Jan 2007 21:35:32 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-760 Dear Donny, <br />I’ve been hoping to respond to this for some time, but other things have occurred till now. I can appreciate your emphasis on speaking to a child over spanking. Certainly training after the ‘60’s pushed this concept. Reasoning with a child seems more useful. <br /><br />Your son seems exceptional and I would certainly by no means, based on your descriptions, see a need to resort to spanking. However, if the core result of your father’s discipline gives you this conclusion, there is a notion that whatever one lacked in their childhood, they tend toward over compensating in the raising of their own children. As in, if I didn’t get gifts, I’d make sure my child got more, if I was beaten, especially by an angry parent, then I certainly won’t do that. We do this sometimes, or the opposite, we do exactly as was done to us. Either way, it’s wrong. There is a place in the center where truth dwells.<br /><br />My father though passive, disciplined me, but with love. He’d often hold me or show me love afterward. Did it contradict his command, no, it instead showed me that his command had to be followed, but that he still loved me...and inevitably wants the best for me. Did he always work this way, no, he wasn’t perfect, but he did his best and am I glad he did. Did I turn out the model child, no, but when I wandered away for a time from God and good judgement, who was there waiting for me from afar, when the prodigal came home...he did. It was my mom on the other hand who was the hard one. If it wasn’t her way, then it was no way. That of course she took from her dad who she unknowingly emulated, and he was a military man.<br /><br />Anyway, I say all this because I believe that discipline in whatever form it is, should match or equal to the task at hand. Some parents will strike their kid in the face in front of everyone, to their child’s shame, others, even worse, will beat them to death, over things that have no value, especially eternal ones. Probably a more precise approach you are reaching for while explaining this violence to avoid is found in Ephesians 6:4 <br />“Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.” Amplified Bible <br />But temper it with these versus found in Hebrews 12:5-15<br /><br />“And have you [completely] forgotten the divine word of appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as sons? My son, do not think lightly or scorn to submit to the correction and discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage and give up and faint when you are reproved or corrected by Him; <br />For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. <br />You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline? <br />Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]. <br />Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live? <br />For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness. <br />For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God]. <br />So then, brace up and reinvigorate and set right your slackened and weakened and drooping hands and strengthen your feeble and palsied and tottering knees, <br />And cut through and make firm and plain and smooth, straight paths for your feet [yes, make them safe and upright and happy paths that go in the right direction], so that the lame and halting [limbs] may not be put out of joint, but rather may be cured. <br />Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord. <br />Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God's grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it---” Amplified Bible<br />Is there a contradiction? No. If discipline as described here is violence against the recipient, then he’s contradicting himself, to then say to strive and live in peace with everybody. There must be a core center that Christ calls us to that is not all the way one way when we say to discipline, or all the way the other way when we are told to be at peace with everyone. In fact, we are encouraged to not allow a root of bitterness to creep in and defile us. If a parent wrongfully disciplines or applies incorrect means and that without love (I think everything we do without love is wrong [1 Cor. 13] as Christians anyway), then certainly we will exasperate our children to anger. So figuring this all out completely requires a lot more work than we thought. Discipline but without anger, correction in love. It takes a lot more discipline in our lives as parents than to fly off the handle with our kids. But then we must correct by scripture, the product of our parents that we’ve become. One thing I have found, is that while some children may possess similar traits, no two children are the same and thus, correction should be dealt with accordingly.<br /><br />Some years ago, Christian Psychologist and radio person, Dr. James Dobson wrote two books, “Dare to Discipline” and “the Strong Willed Child”. These tackle much of these issues and subject matter you speak of, but as you can see from the one title, there are kids with strong wills and there are different sets of ways to deal with that, without breaking their spirits.<br /><br />I think it is too simple to think that discipline, as a form of violence on a child (unless of course we’re talking about child abuse) is the reason for all the mess in the world. The scripture speaks about the heart of man being wicked. While there are reasons why, or motivations why people will commit violent acts, and everyone is responsible for their own actions, even if their upbringings were a mess, still the ultimate cause of so much chaos is the wickedness in our hearts. Did Cain kill Abel because Adam and Eve incorrectly disciplined him? No, he was jealous that God favored Abel’s sacrifice over his. Thus, the first murder, and so on. Everyone has a “garden of Eden” experience, where we are presented with the choice between this way and that way. God spoke to Cain about how evil was at the door of his heart and he was to conquer it or it would conquer him. He gave in to it and killed his brother.<br /><br />As per your secondary comment about what is reinforced for children as they grow up, on a lighter note, I remember hearing Anthony Campolo speak of a professor who pushed the idea of parents struggling with their kids to learn how to sit on the potty and do #2. Well, this professor goes on to say that with all of the emphasis and pressure on the kids about “what and where to do it’, and “sit there till something happens”. The professor builds up to crescendo, as he then asks; “I ask you, what does the child learn in their life about what they have been so focused on producing...it is the gift. Wha t then does the child learn about this gift it has produced on behalf of society, it learns that what it has produced for society.... gets flushed.<br /><br />Anyway, for every incorrect way a father or parents may raise their kids, doing the best they know how, if in fact they have done their best, God spoke to me about this once in my youth. He being the perfect heavenly Father, who knows very well how to discipline His children, still has those who fail and mess up within His fold. So people go wrong because of choices they make, actions they take, wrong thinking that leads to wrong actions...no matter who the parents were and how well or not well they disciplined them. <br /><br />Well, I’ve probably gone way too long on this. I just want to say, that your son probably has a tender heart and doesn’t require heavier discipline, and God bless you for the gift he’s given to you in your son. I leave you with this from Psalms 127:3-5<br /> <br />Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. <br />As arrows are in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. <br />Happy, blessed, and fortunate is the man whose quiver is filled with them! They will not be put to shame when they speak with their adversaries [in gatherings] at the [city's] gate. Amplified Bible<br />And of course, that favorite verse found in Proverbs 13:24 <br />“He who spares his rod [of discipline] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines diligently and punishes him early.” Amplified Bible<br /><br />I understand and do love you brother.<br />Daniel Mendez Dear Donny,
I’ve been hoping to respond to this for some time, but other things have occurred till now. I can appreciate your emphasis on speaking to a child over spanking. Certainly training after the ‘60’s pushed this concept. Reasoning with a child seems more useful.

Your son seems exceptional and I would certainly by no means, based on your descriptions, see a need to resort to spanking. However, if the core result of your father’s discipline gives you this conclusion, there is a notion that whatever one lacked in their childhood, they tend toward over compensating in the raising of their own children. As in, if I didn’t get gifts, I’d make sure my child got more, if I was beaten, especially by an angry parent, then I certainly won’t do that. We do this sometimes, or the opposite, we do exactly as was done to us. Either way, it’s wrong. There is a place in the center where truth dwells.

My father though passive, disciplined me, but with love. He’d often hold me or show me love afterward. Did it contradict his command, no, it instead showed me that his command had to be followed, but that he still loved me…and inevitably wants the best for me. Did he always work this way, no, he wasn’t perfect, but he did his best and am I glad he did. Did I turn out the model child, no, but when I wandered away for a time from God and good judgement, who was there waiting for me from afar, when the prodigal came home…he did. It was my mom on the other hand who was the hard one. If it wasn’t her way, then it was no way. That of course she took from her dad who she unknowingly emulated, and he was a military man.

Anyway, I say all this because I believe that discipline in whatever form it is, should match or equal to the task at hand. Some parents will strike their kid in the face in front of everyone, to their child’s shame, others, even worse, will beat them to death, over things that have no value, especially eternal ones. Probably a more precise approach you are reaching for while explaining this violence to avoid is found in Ephesians 6:4
“Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment], but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.” Amplified Bible
But temper it with these versus found in Hebrews 12:5-15

“And have you [completely] forgotten the divine word of appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as sons? My son, do not think lightly or scorn to submit to the correction and discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage and give up and faint when you are reproved or corrected by Him;
For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes.
You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline?
Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].
Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?
For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God].
So then, brace up and reinvigorate and set right your slackened and weakened and drooping hands and strengthen your feeble and palsied and tottering knees,
And cut through and make firm and plain and smooth, straight paths for your feet [yes, make them safe and upright and happy paths that go in the right direction], so that the lame and halting [limbs] may not be put out of joint, but rather may be cured.
Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it—” Amplified Bible
Is there a contradiction? No. If discipline as described here is violence against the recipient, then he’s contradicting himself, to then say to strive and live in peace with everybody. There must be a core center that Christ calls us to that is not all the way one way when we say to discipline, or all the way the other way when we are told to be at peace with everyone. In fact, we are encouraged to not allow a root of bitterness to creep in and defile us. If a parent wrongfully disciplines or applies incorrect means and that without love (I think everything we do without love is wrong [1 Cor. 13] as Christians anyway), then certainly we will exasperate our children to anger. So figuring this all out completely requires a lot more work than we thought. Discipline but without anger, correction in love. It takes a lot more discipline in our lives as parents than to fly off the handle with our kids. But then we must correct by scripture, the product of our parents that we’ve become. One thing I have found, is that while some children may possess similar traits, no two children are the same and thus, correction should be dealt with accordingly.

Some years ago, Christian Psychologist and radio person, Dr. James Dobson wrote two books, “Dare to Discipline” and “the Strong Willed Child”. These tackle much of these issues and subject matter you speak of, but as you can see from the one title, there are kids with strong wills and there are different sets of ways to deal with that, without breaking their spirits.

I think it is too simple to think that discipline, as a form of violence on a child (unless of course we’re talking about child abuse) is the reason for all the mess in the world. The scripture speaks about the heart of man being wicked. While there are reasons why, or motivations why people will commit violent acts, and everyone is responsible for their own actions, even if their upbringings were a mess, still the ultimate cause of so much chaos is the wickedness in our hearts. Did Cain kill Abel because Adam and Eve incorrectly disciplined him? No, he was jealous that God favored Abel’s sacrifice over his. Thus, the first murder, and so on. Everyone has a “garden of Eden” experience, where we are presented with the choice between this way and that way. God spoke to Cain about how evil was at the door of his heart and he was to conquer it or it would conquer him. He gave in to it and killed his brother.

As per your secondary comment about what is reinforced for children as they grow up, on a lighter note, I remember hearing Anthony Campolo speak of a professor who pushed the idea of parents struggling with their kids to learn how to sit on the potty and do #2. Well, this professor goes on to say that with all of the emphasis and pressure on the kids about “what and where to do it’, and “sit there till something happens”. The professor builds up to crescendo, as he then asks; “I ask you, what does the child learn in their life about what they have been so focused on producing…it is the gift. Wha
t then does the child learn about this gift it has produced on behalf of society, it learns that what it has produced for society…. gets flushed.

Anyway, for every incorrect way a father or parents may raise their kids, doing the best they know how, if in fact they have done their best, God spoke to me about this once in my youth. He being the perfect heavenly Father, who knows very well how to discipline His children, still has those who fail and mess up within His fold. So people go wrong because of choices they make, actions they take, wrong thinking that leads to wrong actions…no matter who the parents were and how well or not well they disciplined them.

Well, I’ve probably gone way too long on this. I just want to say, that your son probably has a tender heart and doesn’t require heavier discipline, and God bless you for the gift he’s given to you in your son. I leave you with this from Psalms 127:3-5

Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
As arrows are in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one’s youth.
Happy, blessed, and fortunate is the man whose quiver is filled with them! They will not be put to shame when they speak with their adversaries [in gatherings] at the [city's] gate. Amplified Bible
And of course, that favorite verse found in Proverbs 13:24
“He who spares his rod [of discipline] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines diligently and punishes him early.” Amplified Bible

I understand and do love you brother.
Daniel Mendez

]]> By: Rickhttp://www.anotherstorm.com http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-759 Rickhttp://www.anotherstorm.com Sun, 31 Dec 2006 04:25:01 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-759 You can use the "rod" without ever laying a finger on your children. To me, sparing the rod means failing to hold them accountable for their actions and to teach them how to live. There's a big difference between that and just pounding on them. You can use the “rod” without ever laying a finger on your children. To me, sparing the rod means failing to hold them accountable for their actions and to teach them how to live. There’s a big difference between that and just pounding on them.

]]> By: riggy fargus http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-758 riggy fargus Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:17:43 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-758 "See what I mean? There are many things that are "in the Bible" that we choose not to take as literally as we take those things that fit with our own goals. <br /><br />Comments?" <br /><br />Donny -<br /><br />Context is so critical. There isn't a Christian in the world that believes we should be obeying all of the levitical laws. The bible is explicit about them being obsolete. I don't think you are being intellectually honest here - I don't really believe you think those verses in Proverbs are obsolete. And I don't think you are willing to study those passages and ask God to work his truth in your heart. I think you've made up your mind and done it in the flesh. We can disagree on all sorts of things, but if you are coming to me as a Christian and are that quick to blow off the Bible I am going to have a real hard time respecting your opinion. “See what I mean? There are many things that are “in the Bible” that we choose not to take as literally as we take those things that fit with our own goals.

Comments?”

Donny -

Context is so critical. There isn’t a Christian in the world that believes we should be obeying all of the levitical laws. The bible is explicit about them being obsolete. I don’t think you are being intellectually honest here – I don’t really believe you think those verses in Proverbs are obsolete. And I don’t think you are willing to study those passages and ask God to work his truth in your heart. I think you’ve made up your mind and done it in the flesh. We can disagree on all sorts of things, but if you are coming to me as a Christian and are that quick to blow off the Bible I am going to have a real hard time respecting your opinion.

]]> By: Oceanskaterhttp://unveiledfaces.org/wordpress/ http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-757 Oceanskaterhttp://unveiledfaces.org/wordpress/ Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:46:52 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-757 Hi, Donny,<br /><br />There are certainly portions of Levitical law that we don't follow anymore. Why not? The case is always that there is something in the New Testament or in the words of Jesus that address either the specific law or the theme behind the law.<br /><br />Take, for instance, issues of being clean or unclean (this applies to food, fabrics, menstruating women, and so on). Jesus said this in Mark 7:18-19:<br /><br />"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") <br /><br />Then you can read in Acts 11 all about God speaking to Peter about the same issue.<br /><br />I could cite quite a few examples, but I think it would make a lot more sense for you to sit down with a Christian you trust, who is knowledgable about this stuff, and discuss these issues. All of the Bible is relevent to our lives and has wisdom for us. And I believe it is all the literal word of God. If it's not all God's Word, how do we decide what to pick and choose as truth?<br /><br />That doesn't mean I take everything at face value. For instance, just because the Psalms say I can rest in the shadow of God's wing doesn't make Him a bird. Also, just because something happened in the Bible doesn't mean it's a mandate for my life. Every passage in the Bible is either descriptive or prescriptive. We need to use wisdom in deciding what is what. And we always need to look at the Bible as a whole. <br /><br />If I'm confused about one verse or chapter of the Bible, what can I read in other chapters of the Bible that talk about this topic and could possibly clarify this for me? <br /><br />Maybe that's helpful. Hi, Donny,

There are certainly portions of Levitical law that we don’t follow anymore. Why not? The case is always that there is something in the New Testament or in the words of Jesus that address either the specific law or the theme behind the law.

Take, for instance, issues of being clean or unclean (this applies to food, fabrics, menstruating women, and so on). Jesus said this in Mark 7:18-19:

“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)

Then you can read in Acts 11 all about God speaking to Peter about the same issue.

I could cite quite a few examples, but I think it would make a lot more sense for you to sit down with a Christian you trust, who is knowledgable about this stuff, and discuss these issues. All of the Bible is relevent to our lives and has wisdom for us. And I believe it is all the literal word of God. If it’s not all God’s Word, how do we decide what to pick and choose as truth?

That doesn’t mean I take everything at face value. For instance, just because the Psalms say I can rest in the shadow of God’s wing doesn’t make Him a bird. Also, just because something happened in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s a mandate for my life. Every passage in the Bible is either descriptive or prescriptive. We need to use wisdom in deciding what is what. And we always need to look at the Bible as a whole.

If I’m confused about one verse or chapter of the Bible, what can I read in other chapters of the Bible that talk about this topic and could possibly clarify this for me?

Maybe that’s helpful.

]]> By: andy http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/comment-page-1/#comment-756 andy Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:40:51 +0000 http://donnysramblings.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/#comment-756 Whoa, there is quite a debate going on here. <br /><br />Firstly, I am so glad your son was brought up to be such a great young man through your spanking-less style. In many cases, this may work. If it does, there is no reason to spank your child. <br /><br />Not all children are the same. I believe very strongly that spankings are necessary for some kids. They don't teach the kids that violence solves problems if approached properly. They are completely worthless if the reason for the discipline is not completely known to the child. For some kids, this pain is a good way to let them know that negative actions have negative consequences.<br /><br />You have spent a great deal of time around your son, and I don't doubt that you and your son's mother have figured out the best way to treat your son. You should be open to the fact that you don't know what is best for other peoples sons and daughters. Whoa, there is quite a debate going on here.

Firstly, I am so glad your son was brought up to be such a great young man through your spanking-less style. In many cases, this may work. If it does, there is no reason to spank your child.

Not all children are the same. I believe very strongly that spankings are necessary for some kids. They don’t teach the kids that violence solves problems if approached properly. They are completely worthless if the reason for the discipline is not completely known to the child. For some kids, this pain is a good way to let them know that negative actions have negative consequences.

You have spent a great deal of time around your son, and I don’t doubt that you and your son’s mother have figured out the best way to treat your son. You should be open to the fact that you don’t know what is best for other peoples sons and daughters.

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