Donny's Ramblings

Yeah, I had the same experience with Vineyard Christian Church in Valparaiso, IN. VERY odd, very similar issues (including the flag-waving), but I couldn’t say that God was not there, not after just visiting. It just wasn’t for me. And eventually, God showed me to a church that was in line with my thinking AND my personality…AND God is there too!
I look at something like this like I do race relations. It’s undeniable that people of similar races tend to congregate together. That doesn’t mean it’s racist…I’d actually consider it the opposite of racist. It just means that in a sphere for a particular ethnicity, one is more likely to find similar experiences and similar mindsets.
In the same way, I think churches find congregations because people of a similar mindset end up finding each other. It doesn’t mean that it’s intentionally segregated…I think it’s the opposite. You see all these different churches with all the different ways of worship…and God is among all of us!!! I’m encouraged by the differences, because no matter what, it’s Christ that unifies us.

Bethel draws me like a magnet. If I lived closer that would definitely be my home church.

Jesus Friggen H’

“In the middle of service it was called out that someone had pain in their ear and God wanted to heal them.”

I guess God knew that someone had a ear ache, he just didn’t know who it was. Good thing that preacher was there to figure it out for him.

Donny, your turning in to a religious NUT CASE!

John,

Re-read the parts on free will in the book you were sent (“letters from a skeptic”). I’ll let you formulated the answer to that question yourself.

- D -

I suppose next week he just might say “One of you out there has a tooth ache!”. I’m no Dentist, but I’d say the odds are pretty darn good that out of the 100′s of people in the building he will be right AGAIN!

^ But only if two feathers fall from the ventilation system to prove it so.

Calling out a pain someone has is not remarkable, you’re right. But you seem to be forgetting the part where my ear popped and instantly stopped hurting. I’m not BSing you about that.

My dad used to go to those kind of churches.
People would ‘speak in tongues’ rattling on a bunch of useless bla that nobody understands. I’d think that if god had a message for everyone he’d put it in English. Going in to convulsions on the floor. Weird stuff. I guess like everything else else, this to evolves over time. Now it’s flag waving, feathers falling from the sky, mysterious coins. Very strange indeed!

I grew up in similar churches, too. Most of it is BS crap. I personally think “speaking in tongues” is meant to refer to literal languages, but that’s another story.

As I mentioned, this church strikes me as odd in many ways. But it also intrigues me. I’m not saying I buy into what they’re selling, but I AM saying the things I’ve seen with my own eyes are very… remarkable.

“Remarkable” things don’t happen every service, either. But I’ve seen plenty to make me think. I still don’t want to accept it all, but I can’t deny what I’ve seen.

You CRAZY!

But your still the main man!

Donnie,
When the disciples were speaking in tongues it says that everyone heard them in their own language. That does not mean that it was each disciple spoke in another language. It seems to me that the disciples spoke in tongues of a heavenly language and the Holy Spirit interpreted to the hearers. I’ve attended Bethel for four years. I have 20 years of church leadership experience and 30 years of dealing with church politics. There is definite bullshit going on with the legit. There are some creepy weird and stupid people there. Spiritual orgies (people piling on top of each other while manifesting and trying to push the experience). You can’t always separate the fodder and try to control everything. The one with an encounter with God will always have the upper hand in a debate about what God will and will not do. I’ve had a few great encounters and have seen many real miracles, signs and wonders. The only big issue I have is that there’s not much love. I could get into a long rant on that, but I’ll save it.I can speak with tongue’s of angels, but if the relationship ain’t there I’m just clanging.
Dalen

People thought John the Baptist and Jesus were pretty weird too.

Donny,

I am learning about these kinda churches too from a guy I work with. I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church, though I am in the process of looking for a new church, so many of these things are kinda weird to me too. Just keep an open mind, you never know what God is going to teach you about things, or what you may come to believe.

Blake

We should remember that what we do inside or even outside the church should be done to edify( instruct, improve morally, build up) other believers and lead unbelivers to faith in the Lord. If you read 1 Corinthians 14:1-33 you’ll find Paul giving this teaching. Pay particular attention to verse 33. God is not the author of confusion.
BTW….y’all sure use some foul language to be trying to lead others in the right direction….

Then you should talk to Paul the Apostle about his use of words to communicate. Words, whether strong or soft, communicate. They’re just words bro, relax.
Dalen

Donnie —-
I am so happy for you that the Lord healed your ear. I am sorry that Bethel is so wierd (they are) and that the true love and purity of God is covered up by that wierdness. God says that he won’t take His gifts away from people and so He expects us to behave in a manner of integrity and wholeness (which does not include running around to fast food places giving a “word” to people, even if the “word” is right….. the Bible says to be in God’s timing, not our own. I have been supernaturally healed of Cystic Fibrosis and many other things and I subscribe to the idea that whatever you do, if it does not cause someone to want to know Christ, then you shouldn’t do it. Wierdness is Wierd and God isn’t wierd. The devil owns wierdness and the devil has some power too. People are stupid I guess and make a huge attempt to make God look wierd. I’m sorry that the wierdness got ya. The Lord is really full of love and His move of fullness and power and healing is so abundant and NOT wierd. In our church in Fresno, CA we are having a huge Revival and it goes on and on forever, we don’t have wierdness. We don’t have to, we have Jesus instead! So, I pray that you are able to find a place that comforts you and also lifts up Jesus. That’s what the Lord said was the big deal….. Jesus said, “If you lift me up, I’ll draw everyone to me.” and he also said…. “Don’t marvel that these miracles have happened, but rather be glad that your name is written down in the lambs book of life.” Congratulations on your name being written down in that book Donnie. thank you for defending the work of God, even in the midst of “the wierdness.” Blessings to you, Sandi

I think that we all know that signs and wonders do not show that a ministry is genuine. Think about matthew 7:22. If you haven’t read it check it out. These people plead to Jesus with their signs and wonders but he says depart from me I never knew you. Bethel may display signs and wonders but that doesn’t authenticate anything. Here is another scripture to think about:

“For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” REvelation 16:14

“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” -Revelation 19:20

Wow guys, without knowing these people personally or having a good first hand knowledge you sound a bit judgmental. Let me clarify what I was saying in the first post. The leaders of this church are godly men. They have things together. Each congregation has flaws. Strengths and weaknesses. Bethel’s big weakness is the lack of connecting. The fellowship and relationship building is weak. It seems to be more of a big conference church with incredible insight into the supernatural works of God. Just like in the new testament there will be counterfeit right along with the real. The weeds that grow along with the crop will not be pulled till harvest. Just because the Bethel people work in the supernatural differently does not mean they are wrong. It does not mean that the REAL revival is only going on in Fresno. This is the classic Christian problem. “the river movement is the real one, no the seeker sensitive is best, no the regular pentecostal is the only way to go, you must worship on Saturday, you can’t be Catholic”, so on and so forth. Well like it or not we are brothers and sisters. The weird ones too. Don’t try to clone yourself. Like Steve Taylor’s song says “….cloneliness is next to godliness, right? I’m grateful that they showed the way, ’cause I could never know the way to serve him I my own. I want to be a clone.
I now need to go watch a movie with my wife, so I’ll give the rest of my view on this later. God bless you all.
Dalen

Dalen,

That was very well written.

- Donny -

Donny,

This is the same response I put on my blog.

It sorta sounds like you have the same belief that many do today, i.e. if good stuff is happening then it must all be okay and there’s no need to worry about anything.

Why is it that every time I raise questions about certain movements, the first thing that happens is folks begin talking about how nice the people are, how much supernatural stuff is happening and all the other good things they can list, but they never address the questions I raise?

I don’t have issue with healing.
I don’t have issue with deliverance.
I don’t have issue with blessings.
I don’t have issue with accurate personal prophecy.
I don’t have issue with any of the “good” things you listed as a defense of Bethel Church. Those aren’t problems so why discuss them?

So let’s talk about the teachings they allow, the practices they engage in and the other issues I raised. Let’s stop creating diversions and face up to what should be faced. How ’bout addressing the thrust of this post? How ’bout asking Bill Johnson to find justifacation for girls who wave flags in the front of the church wearing skin tight clothing revealing all the flesh that men like most? How ’bout asking these ladies how they justify the heavy, jerky bowing they do that causes their low rider pants to expose their G-strings and upper half of their butt cheeks in front of my boys in my youth group?

How ’bout this Donny:
Stop telling me about the good stuff I already know about and don’t have a problem with.
Stop side tracking the discussion and deal with the issues, finger tip to finger tip, eyeball to eyeball, hand to hand.

Accurate prophecy? Praise God!
Healings? Praise God!

Remember how Jesus dealt with those churches in the book of Revelation: He complimented what was good (read around here, I’ve done that) but took major issue with what was wrong and told these churches that even with them doing what was good they ran the risk of Him removing His presence from them if they didn’t correct their errors!!!

Remember His phraseology: “Strengthen what remains”, “Repent” and such like.

If you can’t do this simple thing (engage the realities of what I’m discussing) then I can’t take you seriously, nor can I take your defense of this church, as a whole, seriously. The good things cannot pacify God from dealing with what is bunk, and what is bunk is horribly and tragically wrong!

Try having this attitude toward a marriage.

“He works hard, loves the kids and pays all the bills…but he likes flirting with girls”.
Uh, no.

See what I mean?

Engage the actual issues raised and please, PLEASE stop telling me about all the nice stuff and nice people and good things that I already know about. I used to live only 2 hours away dude…I went to Bethel a bunch of times, it’s not like I’m a stranger to it, or the movements they espouse.

Later,
mark jr.

BTW,
Vince actually does know a lot of the people from that church. He goes to a local college in Redding and has been through Bethel many, many times.

Just so you know…

Donnie,

Appreciate that you are trying to sort it all out. I believe in Pentecostalism, but it must be done with ” decency and orderliness” I Cor 12,13, 14 or else those around who don’t know us or Jesus will think we are nuts. When we get outside of the instructions of the scripture regarding the use of the Gifts and what they are for then it becomes nothing more than a “make me feel good” experience. It becomes self center-vain-imagination of man and takes our eyes off of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit was never to be worshiped in the manner that the church does today. In fact the Holy Spirit’s task is to bring all men to the knowledge of Christ, the one we are to worship.

We may think we are giving glory to God but ultimately it is all about us. Seeker sensitive is based off of plegiasm theology and was considered a heresy by the church in 450 A.D. It has reared it’s ugly head again.

Much of what we see in churches today is from the “prophetic movement” and is based on a theology called Latter Rain. It was considered a heresy by the AG Church (Bethel’s denomination) and many of the people that have come to minister at Bethel (guest speakers) come from this theology and are speaking false teaching to the people.

I personally believe the Gifts were not suppose to be used for show but to be able to validate the ministry of Jesus Christ, unto salvation. I have not been to Bethel but my in-laws have had alot of contact with them and we have had people from my church go. What they brought back, some good but much more so wacked out, I couldn’t believe my ears.

So while I will not doubtthat you experienced “something” and it very well may have been a touch from the Lord, I would be very careful what you accept as teaching that seems right but is not because of very poor hermanuetical teaching.

Mark Jr.,
Let me just take the step of offending your religiosity to the fullest. Try this. After Adam and Eve were clothed in the garden by God, was Eve topless? Why not? The breast’s human function are to nurture. Thus the Hebrew name for God as the “many breasted One” El Shaddai. So social culture and religious culture create a conditioned response. “Don’t show the neck of a woman or it’s a sin.” I know men who have a fetish foe elbows. Control lust and choose not to. If a man sees a naked woman , the religious response is that he must lust. I was brought up in that environment. I disagree with that completely. I addressed that in the previous post, but on a mild note. Your way is to “change those naked savages into us white missionaries, and make them wear our Christian European clothing(cloning).” Those skin tight clothes that the girls wear are for dancing.(spandex or stretch pants) You seem to have a gavel in your hand. Be careful, Plankeye. That controlling spirit will eat you alive. Are you the type that stands by the principle over the person?

Iwanthetruth,
What heresy was according to man’s understanding 100 years ago changes. God is constantly breaking out of our boxes. I seek the truth. I seek a deeper relationship with Christ. I know His voice well. We build our principles and understanding of God from the interpretation of Scripture and the relationship with Him. (experiencing Him) Our understanding will change at times if we let God show us. Unfortunately we often put into stone our principles that were derived from our interpretation or our mentors understanding. Why do you think the Jews had such a hard time accepting Christ as the Messiah? In the early church the disciples did not think that tongues were for the gentiles until Peter reported that they had the same experience that the disciples had on the day of Pentecost. Are you following?
well, I just got back from two photo calls for Chico State Theatre , and have a lot of photo’s to process for tomorrow. So I’ll end here, but this is very fun verbal jousting. I haven’t had this much fun since Bible College.
Shalom
Dalen

Alright, I’m now waiting for my digital negatives to export so I’ll throw this last thing in before I go to bed. I’ve known the pastor of Bethel Bill Johnson for years. My father was a guest instructor many times at his discipleship school. Bill could eat your hermetical asses for lunch, but he would not waste his time or energy on useless argument. Most people spend too much time trying to measure skirt lengths and prove their way is the only way, and have no ear for reason. The man IS a righteous “Man O God”. Yes I said asses. That’s in the King James Bible.LOL

That is “hermenuetical asses.” My spell check grabbed it.