Donny's Ramblings

Arizona,

I agree that there have been many revivals in churh history, and all as far as I know and believe have been accompanied with signs and wonders. I think the deeper issue of today is that the current revivals that have occured, Toronto Blessing, Brownsville, etc. have been based on what many mainline pentecostal/charasmatics feel are extra-biblical and when downright checked out with scripture with good hermanuetical study of the scripture, you will find that there is much that has been done contrary/out of context.

With further research you will find that even those who supported some of these current revivals (Derek Prince, Paul Gowdy, etc) are now begining to admit that they were not of the spirit of the Lord but of some other spirit. Disturbing to say the least! Also, it seems that there are many who had spent many years in some of these “movements” are now coming forward and admitting that there is error and at time gross error in the scriptural interpretations that became the theological foundations of these supposed revivals.

So, I think it wise that you study the scripture asking the Holy Soirit to lead into all truth and question when things just don’t seem to add up or line up.

Dalen,

I am not in anyway, in this post suggesting that about Bethel, so don’t get defensive… I am talking generalized regarding many of the revivals of today.

Peace out to both of you

Thanks for the information guys. I will use it to help myself come closer to the truth. I did think the sign of Jonah website was good. Have you read the apologetics websites?

Also, you can go to youtube and find some pretty disturbing videos with Todd Bentley healing people. One has this chick rolling around and really it looks more like a demonic spirit than one of the Lord.

Check it out! AZ

We all have our opinions, we all have our experiences, but we must measure everything against Jesus. Jesus sent a herd of pigs over a cliff by sending a legion of demons out from a man. Think about it, that would be a pretty “weird” sight to see; have you ever seen someone being delivered of a demon? It’s not pretty; just read the description in the Bible. About going to Carl’s Jr. to give a word to a woman…what about Jesus going to the Samaritan woman and “reading her mail” and, oh-by-the-way, it was a big no no to for Jewish men to speak to Samaritan women. What harm did that young man do? None. Nobody knows what the Holy Spirit was up to…who are we to judge God’s move anyway? My Pastor says with everything we see or hear, treat it like eating fruit, eat the fruit and spit out the seeds. We all have the Holy Spirit in us; if something doesn’t sit well, just ask the Holy Spirit…He’ll tell you what to do. Quit being judgemental, does, plank in your eye mean anything? Someone earlier on this blog mentioned about if we have prophesy, cast out demons and even raise the dead but don’t love people then we are a clanging cymbal. If anyone on this blog is without sin…cast your stone (boy didn’t that sound rightous and spiritual hee, hee). God bless you all and may the Lord reveal Himself to us more. Nicki

It sounds like you are being a little judgemental yourself Nicki. Remember that Satan can be dressed in many cloths and you can just as easily be tricked as the next person. Yes, the Spirit is inside of you, but you better check things with the Bible because You and your feelings and thoughs might get in the way of the Holy Spritit and the truth. There is no wonder to me that the Bible exists, otherwise we would have nothing to check things against.

another interesting blog. I agree with the fact that some of us need to relax a bit and not attack your brother and sisters. I was saved into a small home group that spoke in tongues, did deliverance and maybe the best was dream interpreation and the fact that because we were so close, God would give us dreams meant for someone else in the group. There was a lot of encouragement and confirmations(meaning multiple confirmations of a dream/prophesy from outside the group)

This is a great way that the Lord uses to build us up. I think one reason it was so great is that we were very close together and so our lives were sort of knit and intertwined so we could speak into each others lives more.

however as of the last 2+ years from digging into the word, I can see some problems with the theology that we were believing in, and the lack of Bible teaching. I know that God was working big time, and that’s how he eventually led me to a more Bible strong group(through a dream of the Pastor). Funny, leading me through a dream to a much more Bible based church.

I think that one problem people have is too much excitement over signs. If it is from the Lord, in my experience, he will confirm it for you more than once, and I don’t mean that after the prophesy, the guy next to him says, “I see it too” God is big and he confirms his signs in ways that are impossible to fake, like a stranger at the bus stop later saying the same thing that your brother/sister said in church, for example.

Matt,

You experience sounds very similar to mine. I am only as far as your third paragraph and working towards the fourth. Thanks for the encouragement. Was is hard to break away from your group?

I have not been to the church personally, but have Bill Johnson, his team, and other pastors come to our church yearly. They are all very wise and I know that God leads them daily. What I have learned is to throw off religion. I know I will get a lot of reponses on that, but hear what I am saying…RELIGION, Not JESUS. Religion can build the walls up between christians and make the lost never want a relationship with God. You talk about the women and their clothing. Let God deal with them on that. Jesus wants to change to people and he never refused anyone. Read on who he reached out to most and the background of his diciples. On talking in tongues. This is not for others to understand. It is meant for God ears when it is you praying to him. I have found many times that when I am praying in the spirit I will have many emotions. Sometimes I will be crying and I can feel God is moving in my and healing me, maybe in ways I have’nt even seen I needed. As for when someone gives a message in tongues it should always follow with the interpertation. That is God speaking to us. I thought people were crazy at first when I would see them jerking or falling out…, but it happened to me and I never thought it would. I can tell you it is the most peaceful experience. The dancing and flag waiving do have purposes. They are breaking down walls. Yes and sometimes you will see demonic spirits in people at churches. The bible says the devil is always at church. It is crazy to see them released from a person, but thank God their are people willing to help them and work in the supernatural. Just because you think the supernatural does’nt exist does not mean it does not. There is a supernatural world at work, good and evil. If you open your eyes to it you can not ignore it. Everyone has free will, but please just do not take some ones word that they are crazy. Do your own praying about this and let God open your eyes to his truths. You could miss God from others doubts. Always put Jesus first and pray each day that he can use you as he sees. Do not worry what others think of you because it really only comes down to what Jesus thinks. Also please do not think I am bashing you for thinking they are crazy. I once thought this way, but I asked God to show me if it was real and He has. Sorry if there is many errors of spelling and stuff in this post. I have the Flu, but know that God is healing me of this:) be blessed!!!!!

Does anyone have any experience with Bethel Church relating to “Recovered Memories”, or Theophostic therapy? My daughter sought counseling at Bethel 3 years ago and that was the end of our relationship. Please, if anyone who has had a similar experience I could really use any information that you have.

I went to Bethel Church for a healing. I was very open. I didn’t know anything about it before going to the service.

There was no surge of God’s power. What I did see disturbed me. I saw jerking, people looking for a emotional experience, and witchery laughter. I felt a strong sense of the devel’s presence. I think people are getting demonized. I prayed God would put a protective wall around me.

I do believe in the supernatural, and in the gifts. In some cases perhaps by faith people are healed. Healing can happen where there is faith. It can happen in your own closit.

I am sceptical of any group where people look up to the pastor like a god. What ever he says is gospel truth. Scripture tells us to question the spirits to see if it is of the Holy Spirit. We are exhorted to examine everything by Scriptures. I think in this Church there is a strange fire happening. I would want to get burned by it.
This Church shall come to naught.
You should check out David Wilkerson’s article on this movement written up in the Carisma magazine.

M. Barry and Arizona: M. Barry, you were under some kind of personal demonic assault when you walked into Bethel, but you weren’t consciously aware of it at the time. Don’t make it your fault or theirs. One of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment. Without becoming devil-conscious, learn to discern what is hitting you and why. Then rebuke it in Jesus’ name, the Name above every Name. Two easy biblical steps: 1) Submit to God, 2) Resist the devil and voila! he will flee from you. The presence of the Lord is at Bethel and it’s not hard to tune into. They are also very Scriptural. I was raised Baptist, have been pentecostal for many years now. I understand how they both think. All Christian churches say they believe the whole Bible, but they sure promote different emphases, don’t they? I read this whole blog here, and it wasn’t real hard to pick up denominational biases of the writers. No one just sits in a hollow tree reading the Bible with no outside influences, and they wouldn’t come up with the perfect interpretation on their own anyway because the human mind is enmity against God. Most Christians have had the Bible spun to them according to the Anabaptists’ thinking, the pentecostal thinking, the Catholic thinking, you name it. Your mind is a filter when you read the Bible. However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation. Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic? Jesus came across as weird putting mud on that guy’s eyes to heal him (they don’t do THAT at Bethel). Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural. The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying, but put yourself in the shoes of those sincere, very dedicated doctrinal experts, the Pharisees. Would YOU have had ears to hear this scary guy who claimed to be the Messiah or would you have left? Jesus even asked His own hand-picked 12 disciples, “Are you guys going to go too now?” True hunger for God gives someone ears to hear. Blessed are those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Here is a model to judge a church by: The poor received Jesus gladly and he had a big rag-tag following (not all of them perfect by the way). The Pharisees on the other hand searched far and wide to make one proselyte. Hmmm…. Bethel has gone to 3 services on Sun am they are getting so huge because people are meeting God there and getting what they need to grow. There are other churches in Redding searching far and wide to make one proselyte. Rick Warren’s church is like 25-30,000 people and I didn’t think too much of that one way or the other until I saw him on God TV. Incredible deep, deep dedication to the Lord, same as I’ve witnessed in Bill Johnson and the other Bethel pastors. The churches that are attached to the Vine are bearing fruit and their fruit is remaining, much to the chagrin of churches that are so obsessed not with the Bible per se, but limited, disempowering, unglorifying-to-God interpretations of the Bible that no doubt give the devil a better night’s sleep. Get on your face before God. Make Him tell you what He thinks of Bethel. Who cares what I think or Dalen thinks. Hope this helps. Love, Linda

Linda,

That was a really great comment. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

Linda,

I have a few questions about your post. Would you mind answering them? I am very curious about this church.

1. You stated to M. Barry, “you were under some kind of personal demonic assault when you walked into Bethel, but you weren’t consciously aware of it at the time.”

Do you have some certain knowledge that he was under a demonic assault or do you just assume that he was because he stated, “I think people are getting demonized”?

You say he was under demonic assault. He says that he thought that people were getting demonized. Linda can you tell me how I can decide which of you—if either—is correctly attributing demonic influence?

2. You stated, “Most Christians have had the Bible spun to them according to the Anabaptists’ thinking, the pentecostal thinking, the Catholic thinking, you name it. Your mind is a filter when you read the Bible.”

Linda can you tell me why you are immune to the Bible being spun to you if you are in fact claiming that?

3. You wrote,” However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation.”

Can you explain why it is wrong to be mental in our relationship with God? Can you give a scriptural reference that proves that it was being, “mental” that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation?

4. You asked, “Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic?

Are you saying that the Pharisees missed the day of their visitation because they were afraid of committing errors? And if that is what you are saying can you provide a scriptural reference?

5. You stated, “Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural.”

Can you explain how it was unscriptural for God in Flesh to forgive the woman caught in adultery? And if you can will you please give a scriptural reference to support your argument?

6. You stated, “The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” ?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”

Can you explain how it was “unscriptural” for Jesus to say that? And are you saying that we should evaluate the truth value of his statement because, “we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”?

7. You stated, “Here is a model to judge a church by: The poor received Jesus gladly and he had a big rag-tag following (not all of them perfect by the way). The Pharisees on the other hand searched far and wide to make one proselyte. Hmmm…. Bethel has gone to 3 services on Sun am they are getting so huge because people are meeting God there and getting what they need to grow. There are other churches in Redding searching far and wide to make one proselyte. Rick Warren’s church is like 25-30,000 people and I didn’t think too much of that one way or the other until I saw him on God TV.”

Are you saying that we can judge whether or not a church is of God by counting how many people attend the services or how many services they have? Is that how we can divide between truth and error? If that is what you are saying can you give a scriptural reference?

Linda, I have asked you several times to give me scriptural references because you stated about Bethel, “The presence of the Lord is at Bethel and it’s not hard to tune into. They are also very Scriptural.” It is my assumption therefore that you value what the scripture says, and that you can give me scriptural references to support your arguements. If you cannot give me scriptural arguments then how else will I know who is “it” in the game of “demon tag”?

Hey Pat, that leash around your neck is so tight, you may want to back off before you lose consciousness:) If you didn’t get the humor, I mean to say call off the attack there. Are you truly wanting to have references given you? Then would you change you opinion. It doesn’t seem to me that you actually want to hear a good Bible based argument that is derived contrary from the way you interpret scripture, otherwise you would have no problem with Linda’s argument. I agree that if one is going to argue a case then one should support their findings properly, but I have my doubts you would allow the latitude used. If Linda does not provide references, and you are actually open to another point of view then I will glad roll them out for you. Then you can do what you want with them. One thing I know that is true. Intellectual doctrine based on just intellect is always trumped by an encounter and experience with God(i.e.Paul). Intellect is great, but without a certain amount of faith and walking into the unknown you get the Greeks. If you want all mystical miracles etc. you get just the Jews. There’s some scripture there, need I really give an exact reference?
Bless You All
Dalen

Dalen,

And I am well known for my sense of humor. I was not attacking. I was asking Linda to justify her attack.

And I don’t mean to pick on Linda actually. However she made, in my opinion, some rather irresponsible accusations against many of the churches in the Redding area. I find that quite offensive. My guess is that she wrote her post while feeling rather emotional about M. Barry’s suggestion that people at Bethel were getting demonized. However, I find it unsettling that she compared other local churches to the Pharisees. I have seen this over and over again though the years, and I am always nervous when individuals of a particular church seem to suggest that God’s favor rests on them and their church, and if you are not with us you are just not with what God is doing. Now possibly she didn’t mean to suggest this, and if that is the case maybe she would like to clarify her position.

You stated, “It doesn’t seem to me that you actually want to hear a good Bible based argument that is derived contrary from the way you interpret scripture, otherwise you would have no problem with Linda’s argument.”

Your statement is rather illogical since I was asking specifically for a Bible based argument. You have not provided any argument yet you seem comfortable suggesting that I don’t want to hear a good Bible based argument. I have not stated my interpretation of her oblique references to scriptures, however I would be happy to do so.

So to answer your question, yes I very much would like to have those references. If you can provide a Bible based argument for her position then I will read it with an open mind, providing that you do so without any more ad hominem attacks against me.

I do have a question though:

You stated, “One thing I know that is true. Intellectual doctrine based on just intellect is always trumped by an encounter and experience with God(i.e.Paul).”

Your use of the word “trumped” is possibly a poor choice? I doubt that you were suggesting that experience trumps doctrine. Am I correct in my assumption of what you meant? My own opinion is that an encounter with the Spirit of God augments doctrine, but never trumps it. (Clearly you were talking about strictly intellectual based doctrine and I agree with you on that.) But in the broader since I don’t think you are suggesting that an “encounter” with God carries greater weight than doctrine are you?

Linda and/or Dalen

I said that I would give my “interpretation” to the scriptural references made in Linda’s post so here they are.

Linda wrote,” However does God manage to get through to the fundamentalist? Now that is a modern miracle in itself! They can be so mental in their relationship with God, the same shortcoming that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation.”

I asked, “Can you explain why it is wrong to be mental in our relationship with God? Can you give a scriptural reference that proves that it was being, “mental” that caused the Pharisees to miss the day of their visitation?”

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

Loving God with our mind is not a suggestion, it is a command.

Is being mental why the Pharisees missed their day of visitation?

Luke 5:27 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. “Follow me,” Jesus said to him,
28. and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.
29. Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them.
30. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and `sinners’?”
31. Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
32. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

One of the reasons that the Pharisees rejected Jesus is that they refused to recognize that they were sinners.

And,

Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
43. “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
44. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
45. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.

They rejected Jesus. This is another reason they missed their visitation.

Not all of the Pharisee rejected him however:

John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.
39. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
46. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee:

John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.

Yet he assisted in the burial of our Lord and Savior.

Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees teaching the Law, he had a problem with their “yeast” which was hypocrisy.

In fact, Jesus said:

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

It was not their teaching of the Law that he criticized, it was their lack of practicing it.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

He never criticized their teaching of the Law. It was their habit of not practicing justice, mercy and faithfulness that he criticized.

And furthermore:

Matthew 13:52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

Contrary to Jesus criticizing being “mental”, he is in fact endorsing it. The great illustration of the last scripture reference is the Apostle Paul.

Linda asked:

“Now how is that picky error-paranoid theology more holy than being emotional and joyful and occasionally erratic?”

I have searched and can find no example of Jesus or the apostles warning us to not to be concerned with committing errors. To the contrary:

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Gasp! They actually had the audacity to question Paul? How dare they!

Linda said:

“but put yourself in the shoes of those sincere, very dedicated doctrinal experts, the Pharisees.”

Sincere, very dedicated?

Matthew 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.

Are you actually comparing the Anabaptists, pentecostals, Catholics, and other local churches of Redding to the Pharisees? The answer is yes you are. But, in order to make your comparison you first had to turn the Pharisees into “sincere” experts.

You either don’t know the scripture or you don’t mind twisting it to suit your own needs.

Linda stated, “Then He forgave the woman caught in adultery which was flat-out unscriptural.”

Now this is really a problem. A really big problem. Whenever anyone actually attempts to suggest that Jesus was being “unscriptural” they are starting to tread on very very dangerous ground. The question should be asked, “Why would anyone suggest something like this?” Could it be that they want to suggest that, “God is doing a new thing?” It that sounds far fetched to anyone I know for a fact that it is not. I have encountered this line of reasoning before among Christians who are trying to justify their particular ideas of what they claim has been revealed to them by the Spirit. This should be addressed and rebuked in the strongest possible terms. And quite frankly—while I have nothing against Linda—this is “flat-out” heresy and I don’t care if my statement offends Linda or anyone else for that matter.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Linda needs to make a decision, either accept that Jesus fulfilled the Law or he didn’t. When Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery he fulfilled the Law or he didn’t. He kept the Law or he broke it. Which is it Linda? This type of cavalier misuse, and dishonest quotation of scripture is heresy and nothing less.

Linda again indulges in this despicable reasoning when she says:

“The Pharisees were absolutely correct in asserting that the Bible said she should be stoned. Then to frost them all and freak out even His own disciples, “Eat My flesh and drink My blood?!” ?!” How unscriptural can He possibly get? We have no problem with that 2000+ yrs later because we hear the spirit of what He was saying,”

Linda, let me help you out with this one:

John 6:50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52. Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53. Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
57. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.

Linda do you know why I don’t have a “problem” with what he said? Because I read and study the scripture. It is not because I “hear the spirit of what He was saying.”

Linda stated:

“Here is a model to judge a church by: The poor received Jesus gladly and he had a big rag-tag following (not all of them perfect by the way). The Pharisees on the other hand searched far and wide to make one proselyte. Hmmm…. Bethel has gone to 3 services on Sun am they are getting so huge because people are meeting God there and getting what they need to grow. There are other churches in Redding searching far and wide to make one proselyte. Rick Warren’s church is like 25-30,000 people and I didn’t think too much of that one way or the other until I saw him on God TV.”

Now this is interesting. Earlier Linda referred to this scripture:

John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67. “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

If we follow Linda’s logic then Jesus should not be a good model for us. Her logic dictates that large numbers and multiple Sunday a.m. services apparently equates to “meeting God.”

Linda since you like numbers, here is a scripture for you:

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Hi, Pat. You are a scribe and a half; I think it’s great. I didn’t copy-paste hundreds of verses into my post, because my windows 98 dog of a computer freezes and crashes daily. But the references you pulled over are precisely the ones I was thinking of. I tend to say things a bit strongly at times and you clarified and substantiated a lot of what I was saying without realizing it. Now to clarify more, because you are obviously a very semantic person, and that’s OK- God uses all of us.

As for M. Barry, of course I wasn’t there to witness whatever he was suffering under, so I suggested what MAY have been the case, because I have seen that phenomenon before and it’s a total drag. People in Jesus day speculated that He had a demon and that was how He did His miracles. How in the universe could someone watch Jesus doing only what He saw the Father doing and think they were feeling the devil? Jesus responded rudely to them, “If I cast out devils by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?”

Who spins my thinking? I grew up Baptist and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at 17, and I’ve been pentecostal most of my adult life. My husband was brought up Lutheran- Missouri synod, confirmation, Lutheran School, and he is also a big influence. He says he’s still Lutheran, but he LOVES Bethel, especially Jesus Culture conferences and swears Martin Luther would love it too, and he’s a devoted expert on Luther. We’re part of the AG in Dunsmuir and get to Bethel once or twice a month Fri pm. We watch a lot of God TV, so these are my influences. I love the writings of A.W.Tozer, John Robert Stevens, Bobby Conners, Bill Johnson, James Goll, to name several. This mix spins my thinking.

About the woman caught in adultery, what did the Law say should be done to her? Bear in mind that was the whole Bible available back then, and Jesus made an un-Law-full exception just for her. The Pharisees were the ultimate Bible-thumpers, I assumed they were basically sincere as a group, maybe becase Saul/Paul stated how sincere he was when he was a Pharisee. But they were obviously TOO mental in their relationship with God to discern that not only was He was the Son of God who was there to fulfill the Law, but that God’s Son can do anything He wants. I trust we are in agreement that Jesus could and can do whatever He wants, period. It’s a clear and present danger to very cerebral people to think they know the Scriptures and not find the Scriptures pointing them to Jesus’ heart and intentions. And the fruit of their lives, like doctrinal arguments, is evident. Oops! We’re both caught in that even now. Emotionally driven people have their issues too. Whatever is born of flesh is flesh and the unredeemed mind no matter how religious and well-intentioned it is, is fully capable of missing God. Loving God with the mind is not the same as leaning on your own understanding. That applies to fundamentalists and pentecostals. If the 1st commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, check yourself and your church by that list. Worship together should exhibit all four, don’t you think? The conservative churches (I don’t want to call any church “dead” as is the habit of some, because that is judging, and who are we to judge another man’s servant) approve worship from the heart and mind, but oh my, don’t get emotional about your love for God and embarrass those around you and make the visitors think you are mentally unstable, and for heaven’s sake, DON’T JUMP, DON’T DANCE, DON’T WAVE A BANNER, DON’T MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE UNTO THE LORD OR GET PHYSICAL IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. It’s like the word “strength” in the 1st commandment is absolutely forbidden in the worship service. What’s up with that?

As a former Baptist / fundamentalist, I know how they think. They are so paralyzed by their fear of deception which they often refer to as “error” that they lean almost entirely on their own theological understanding for safety. Displays of the gifts of the Spirit and the power of God unnerves them, so they scream “heresy!” and “cult!”. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. However their sermons go on endlessly about the power of the devil. I think they ascribe more power to the devil in their daily speech than to God. Funny how they think all the gifts of the Spirit have ceased but God’s people will have power again someday in the Milennium, but meanwhile the devil is raging and that’s the big picture for today. Oh what is Iran doing, who wants to blow us all up with WMD, those plagues are starting, Jesus we’re so scared, make that rapture come quick please please PLEASE!!

About the numbers in churches, I didn’t mean to imply that all the small churches in Redding are small because they are filled with Pharisees, but that Pharisee spirit is very alienating to the lost. And our own churches are the hardest to discern objectively. In most cases we attend there because we feel comfortable and we feel like we fit in with others whose theology complements ours. There are commonalities on the human level contributing as well to that warm, fuzzy feeling. Unfortunately that Sun morning togetherness is not the same as the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Visitors enter the sanctuary and feel nothing because they are not part of the club, nor do they desire to be part of your club. The unreligious in Jesus day responded to Him and His love, because He brought them the Father’s heart . The Pharisees brought them rules and more rules, lots of memorization on their part but no heart. Dalen’s right. The heart trumps the mind. Without the heart of God, aka the Holy Spirit, the mind will get the doctrines just a little wrong every time. The mind without God is the flesh and those that are in the flesh cannot please God. And that is what we ALL want to hear from God when our natural lives are over, “Well done thou good and faithful servant.”

Linda,

Thank you for clarifying some of your statements from your first post. I realize that my post may have seemed a bit harsh, but your points; as then stated; warranted a strong response.

You spoke somewhat about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You are preaching to the converted with me. I do believe that the gifts are for today. The Lord has used me to minister with some of the gifts as we see outlined in Corinthians, and as demonstrated in Acts. And I have been ministered to from people exercising those gifts.

I think that those of us who have Charismatic or Pentecostal backgrounds are just as guilty as the “fundamentalists” or “dispensationalists” of putting the Holy Spirit in a box in our thinking. Just because a person does not think that the gifts are for today, or that the Baptism or Filling of the Holy Spirit is not a possible subsequent experience; I don’t think that disqualifies them from exercising the gifts or being filled with the Holy Spirit. I have on several occasions known individuals that did not believe in the gifts exercise them. I have witnessed it. I have received messages that could only been prophetic from individuals that I have previously and subsequently argued with regarding the validity of the Charismatic gifts for today. I was wise enough, not to point out that God was using them with those gifts. I was able to accept that the Holy Spirit had it under control. It actually gave me a deeper appreciation for the workings of the Holy Spirit. The idea that just because a person intellectually does not agree with me concerning Pentecostalism therefore can not be used supernaturally by the Holy Spirit is nothing short of arrogance. I learned not to put God in “my” box.

The reason that I mention all of that is sort of a rough attempt to qualify myself as a person who is willing to keep an open mind when considering whether or not a particular supernatural event—or alleged supernatural event—is of God.

I was raised with virtually no religious background. I was saved in a very unusual circumstance at the age of 17. It was actually a year or two afterwards before I became involved with a church. And this church at the time (mid 70s) was considered the most radical church in Northern California. In fact, many people thought that it was a cult and they were afraid of us. There were miracles that occurred there. The gifts of the Holy Spirit flowed freely. But there was one attribute of that church that I don’t see in many of the current alleged supernatural movements. And that is the importance of knowing God through the Word of God. It seemed at times that it was beat into our heads. “You must know the Word. You must study the Word. You must understand sound doctrine. You must study and show yourself approved, you must memorize the scripture.” It seemed that they never stopped saying that you must read, study, and understand the Word.

Through the years I have seen several “fads” creep into the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements. They sort of came and went without too much damage. And I think the reason these false doctrines did not cause too much disruption is that always there was an emphasis from the pulpit on knowing and studying the Word of God. If the general population of church is studying “doctrine” and immersing themselves in the Word, then the occasional counterfeit leader is easily spotted and remedial action can be taken. There is always some damage in such cases, but when the general population of the saints have the “two edged sword” in their hands, the devil better watch out!

Well, you may ask yourself, “why is he saying all of this about the Word”? Linda, let me try to explain why.

I have watched this current “movement” or “revival” for many years. I have been to many services in several churches like those I have read described in this blog. I always went into these services with—not just an open mind—but with a hunger to encounter God. And I have witnessed many of the activities described in this blog. While I felt that some of them (and to be honest most of them in my opinion) were emotive based, I thought possibly that the Holy Spirit was still moving. To be perfectly honest, I never came to a point were I was convinced that many, if any of them, were of God. I still was not totally dissuaded. I thought, ”Oh well, there is some fad stuff going on here. I have seen it before, I will see it again.” I really was not overly concerned. But, years have passed, I have watched the trends, and I have become very very concerned. And the thing that has concerned me the most is the growing lack of knowledge of the Word of God among these congregations. And my own personal observations are that this is due to too little or erroneous emphasis of the Word of God from the pulpit. And this is why, Linda, that I keyed in so emphatically on a few of your statements in your first post, and why I feel compelled to again address what you said in your second post.

Linda, I am not attacking you. I am not trying to just get you to agree with me. I am addressing an issue that I have seen surfacing in this movement that is nothing short of dangerous and hellish.

I have heard Christians try to substantiate many “new” doctrines and practices by suggesting that Jesus himself departed from scripture when “lead by the Spirit”. Linda, if we get this one thing wrong about what Jesus did, then anything goes.

To put a finer point on it:

If Jesus departed from scripture “because He was lead by the Spirit”, then it gives us license to depart from scripture “when we are lead by the Spirit”.

You stated, “About the woman caught in adultery, what did the Law say should be done to her? Bear in mind that was the whole Bible available back then, and Jesus made an un-Law-full exception just for her.”

Linda this is very important. Jesus did not make an exception. If Jesus broke the law, even this one single time, he did not fulfill all righteousness, and therefore he sinned. If he sinned, then he was not the required perfect sacrifice. And then it follows that if he was not the perfect sacrifice, (The Lamb of God without blemish) then we cannot be saved. God required a perfect sacrifice. There is no middle ground on this. It is not a matter of semantics. This is a matter of understanding the foundation of our salvation. This is not something that we can be flippant about, or take lightly. And by the way I don’t think that you are taking it lightly. However, if you will allow me, I would suggest that your understanding of this is not as complete as it should be.

You stated, “I trust we are in agreement that Jesus could and can do whatever He wants, period. It’s a clear and present danger to very cerebral people to think they know the Scriptures and not find the Scriptures pointing them to Jesus’ heart and intentions.”

Jesus is God. Of course he can do anything he wants. But according to Jesus, he never does anything that is not in accordance with the Word.

I previously presented you with this scripture:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill them.
18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Frankly, I was very surprised that after reading this passage that you still felt that Jesus had broken the Law. I need to point out to you that the only ones that said that Jesus was breaking the Law were the Pharisees. Jesus did not say he was breaking the Law. The Apostles did not say that he broke the law.

Linda, you are in fact siding with the Pharisees—the very people that you were originally objecting too. Linda and the Pharisees are saying that Jesus broke the law. Jesus and the Apostles are saying that he did not, and that he was without blemish.

So I am going to give you a few more scriptures to try to explain this. If you reject these I must say that I really don’t see any point in discussing it any further.

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
14. But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15. Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Then John consented.

Here Jesus makes it clear to John the Baptist that He must fulfill all righteousness. Not part of it, ALL of it.

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH OR DEFECT.

Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
14. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself UNBLEMISHED to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: EVERYTHING MUST BE FULFILLED THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT ME IN THE LAW OF MOSES, THE PROPHETS AND THE PSALMS.”

There is no middle ground Linda. There are no exceptions. He either kept and fulfilled the Law or he didn’t.

One of the things that concerns me about this movement is the growing trend of an unhealthy reliance on personal revelation based on prayer alone. Prayer is never unhealthy unless you are leaning on it more than the Word to evaluate doctrine or practices. Why don’t I hear more statements from proponents of this movement that say something like, “Pray and ask God to show you in His WORD whether or not these things are of God?” Why is that becoming such a foreign concept?

Jesus said:

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40. yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

If we want to have Revelation from Jesus, doesn’t it make sense that we go to the scriptures that He says testify about Him?

Incidentally, my church that I described above emphasized prayer as fervently as they emphasized the study of the Word. Intellectual study of the Word without an intimate prayer life with Christ is dead. It is just as you and Dalen alluded. It is the study of the Word AND a prayer life that enables us to be lead by the Spirit. What has bothered me about so many of the proponents of this movement that is the idea that you just pray about whether or not these things are of God and he will reveal to you the truth. No, no, no, that is not what we are to do! We are to use our mind and prayerfully compare what is taught in God’s word to the teaching we are receiving and the events that we are witnessing.

I have been amazed at how many times in my life that I have been so directly and accurately lead by the Spirit. And I am equally amazed at how many times that I thought that I was being lead by the Spirit but was not. This is why we have the Word. If the spirit of man was able to always be lead of the Spirit of God, then why would we need the Word? Linda, you were right when you said that the mind of man is at enmity with God.

When I talk to people in this movement and read many of the posts here, I hear and read so many statements like, “If you are hungry for God and have ears to hear then God will show you the truth.” If that were the total truth then why are there so many cults in the world? Some of the most sincere, hungry, and spiritually opened eared people I have ever met are separated from God and trapped into the false doctrine of a cult. They are not saved—they don’t know God—and their destiny is the Lake of Fire for all of eternity unless they turn to the real God. You see, that is what is ultimately at stake. That is why this is not just a trivial point of doctrinal discussion.

I don’t think that I have too much more to say about this. The scriptures that I presented are self explanatory. You don’t have to be a Bible scholar to understand or “interpret” them. You just have to make a decision whether or not you are going to accept the Word of God or reject it.

Pat and Linda
I was waiting for the semantic thing to pop up. Linda I can’t believe you are actually anti-semantic. LOL.
Okay bad joke
Anyway I had a feeling that there was more in common between us all than not. I’d like to comment more in depth later, but right now I’ve got to get things ready for this Jesus Culture conference coming up. Linda,
I’ll be there again shooting the event and this time with a booth out front. I’ll be attempting to sell posters and stickers. For now I will just say this.Sign and wonders are important, being that they follow….
,but without foundation and structure based on the Bible it is not a good thing. This movement is great, but only as great as the foundation being strong and sound. So congregations focused mostly on the manifestations, signs and wonders will get shaken and torn up.
well I got to get goin’ more later next week.
Peace Rest and Blessing to y’all
Dalen

Hey, Dalen, if I had read your reply before Jesus Culture I would have looked for you there. My husband and I brought the kids from our church and their friends from school. Saturday I was ecstatic their parents would even let us take them down the 5 from Dunsmuir in blizzard conditions, chains only with the freeway expected to close–which it did. One of the kids who comes to church off and on said on the way home Fri pm, “Now I KNOW there is a God because she would not have faked that”, referring to another girl in our group who was slain in the Spirit for about an hour Fri pm, most of it on the cold cement out front while Dutch was still talking inside. I had to go get the car, drive between the cones, and 2 guys helped her into the back seat while she kept speaking in tongues. She was so gone in the Spirit and babbling at the angels or whatever her dilated eyes were tracking we had to stop at the Shasta Lake BK because there was no way I could return her in that condition to her unsaved mom who would have called 911 hysterical and probably beaten me up while waiting for the ambulance. The other girls were advising her not to tell her mom about her experience and I said not to worry because now that she has the Holy Spirit this way, she will become a better daughter every day which her mom will definitely notice. And now she can pray to God perfectly when she doesn’t even know what to ask for. She wanted to know what had happened to her and I said to read Acts 2. She said, “What’s that?” I should have dog-eared it for her as I gave her a Bible from the back seat pocket as I dropped her off at her trailer park. She was SO excited to have one. She did decide to tell her mom and her mom thought it was great. Her grandma looked at me strangely driving by as I was shoveling out the mess the snowplow piled up at the end of our driveway. News gets all over this small town real quick. The girls deliberated over whether to tell the “popular kids” about this great Jesus or just horde Him to themselves. I reminded them that Jesus loves the popular kids at school too. I have a feeling they will share what God did for them at Jesus Culture. It starts with an experience, the hunger for the Lord explodes inside, and then the person can’t get enough of their Bible, and the Holy Spirit explains it to them….in that order. Some of these ones who really were touched by God at Jesus Culture don’t know anything at all about God, Jesus and the Bible, so we’ll start with the basics, maybe play Mel Gibson’s movie about Jesus’ crucifixion, like “see what Jesus went through because He loved you so much” and read them the story in one of the gospels as well.
Interestingly, we offered Jesus Culture tickets and transportation to a lot of kids in our town, not just the churched kids The hungriest ones who really felt the Lord’s presence there and even invited their unsaved friends were NOT the ones in Mt Shasta’s Christian school or home-schooled (Christian). They were the kids in public school, having a single mom, a pantheistic mom, a backslidden mom, an atheistic mom, a habitually cranky mom or any combination of the above. One sent her daughter down with me because she wanted her daughter to shop around all the religions in the cosmos. This girl watched the rather epileptic-appearing manifestation on her friend and made the very astute observation that she wanted God to live in her all the time not just give her a spell like the little one she herself had. She said she had the strangest feeling that even though her tummy was full (they had just eaten), she felt an empty feeling that God was supposed to fill. She asked if it was OK to worship nature too like her mom does. I said, “Jesus is the Boss God of all the other gods and He is the only One who will tell you the truth.” Then she mentioned that her spirit guide she learned how to conjure up on Montel’s TV talk show had told her she was going to hell. I said, “See how wrong they can be? That’s why Jesus is the only One you need to listen to.” The obvious next step is to get them into reading Jesus’ words and to learn the voice of the Lord for themselves.
Hey, Pat, we’re going to converge here, I can feel it coming. I totally understand your concerns about the Bible not being granted its full status as the infallible Word of God. It’s not an issue of the Bible versus personal words from God. The two confirm each other and of course we defer to the Word. But wait! John 1:1 says Jesus IS the Word of God from the beginning of time. And to expand it further, we are His Body, the FULLNESS of Him who fills all in all. Not this-little-light-of-mine, but He is the Head and we are the Body. It’s not good to divide the head from the body and I capitalize Body because the Body is Christ too. It’s not as simple as a written Word here and all us born again schmucks over there making whatever intellectual interpretations we feel entitled to make of the written Word. The mystery hidden from the ages is Christ in us the hope of glory. And that Christ in us is not mute, and of course He does not contradict Himself IF we are reading our Bibles with the mind of Christ in dominance. On the Law, Romans and Hebrews are my favorite epistles for a couple reasons, one because it distinguishes His righteousness from our works-based pseudo-righteousness, and another because they talk about Christ fulfilling the Law. When I said Jesus broke the Law, I was speaking from the Pharisees’ perspective; You and I know He was showing God’s mercy and mercy triumphs over judgment. Considering that Romans and Hebrews were not written when that women was caught though, imagine yourself as a sincere Pharisee trying to grapple with the glaring inconsistency. Humor me- imagine yourself in their shoes. How would you react in that situation? If any man think he stand, let him take heed lest he fall. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Apostles Peter and Paul in their epistles quoted shreds of OT right and left but not in a context the Pharisees approved of, poor exigesis anyway, which is why they kept finding themselves in jail. So even when one stands squarely on the Word of God, someone else will not like his posture or which direction he’s facing. Jesus says you will know them by their fruit. If someone is reading their Bible correctly, the attributes of Jesus should be coming out for everyone to see. If they are not, it will be the vomit of head knowledge, the letter that kills.

On the concerns about Bethel and Global Legacy… Bill is probably more concerned than all of us put together. He knows more than enough about revival history and the rise and fall of great moves of God to recognize that it could happen to this too. Every move of God needs a lifestyle of prayer and repentance because the gravitational pull is to become either a denomination or a cult. Historians say the average life span of a move of God is 35-40 years, then it stales and stagnates into just another denomination. I watched it happen firsthand with another big group and it is the most gradual, insidious thing you have ever seen, with or without gross departures from basic Bible teaching. It can include a pastor leaving his wife for another woman, then comparing his situation to David and Bathsheba whose union was eventually “blessed” and resulted in Solomon’s birth and was in the lineage of Christ. “Walking by faith and not by sight (or feelings)”, aka putting one’s head in the sand when God’s presence lifts from the organization. Scary stuff. No one rejects the Bible consciously, there will always be verses to condone whatever you want. The devil used scripture when he tempted Jesus. Only a blooming idiot would not be scared of wandering out of the will of God, because it can happen to anyone, and I assure you Bill knows this. I sense a huge and reverant fear of the Lord on Him and he should have, because to whom much is given much will be required. Now what does this have to do with you, Pat? If God is revealing to you a danger Bethel could fall into, then why do you think He would show you? So you can PRAY for them! And as you pray and relay your burden to God humbly, God will give you compassion as well and of course answer your prayers. Works for them, works for you. Remember and pray Jesus’ prayer above all, “That they may all be one even as the Father and I are one.”

Hey Pat
I shot about 2400 frames over the 2 days. There should be some good ones. Luke Manwaring should have the ones he likes up on the Jesus Culture site soon. Otherwise I’ll have a section on my site up maybe tonight. On another note not everything that came out of Paul’s mouth or written down was God breathed. Some was cultural, of course you know this.Some people fear separating culture from inspired word. You know, that slippery slope. One great example is Paul saying that it is better not to marry. In his opinion it brought trouble. I wonder if he sent off his wife with a letter of divorce before his encounter with Christ.
Suggesting that one should marry if they can’t control their sexual desires misses the whole point of the intent of God when He put man and woman together. Well got to get going on finishing some web design stuff.
peace 2 ur noggin
p.s. my site adderss is http://theeccentricphotography.com
Dalen

Linda,

I appreciate your comments, and I am glad to hear that you do not think that Jesus broke the law.

Dalen,

I had to laugh at your post regarding Paul and culture. It seems that you are trying to bait me. Well I have news for you buddy. You will only be able to bait me about 70% of the time on that subject. The other 30% of the time I would agree with you to some degree. There are a lot of clear thinking honest people on both sides of that issue. I go back and forth in with my conclusions almost every time I think about it.

I looked at your web site. I really like your work. I do some amateur photography and it is a passion of mine. I recently—reluctantly—purchased a DSLR. I had to because I needed some high resolution shots for a work project. Not that I have anything against digital. I have always thought it was cool. It is just that I love film. However, I have not had a place to set up my darkroom for a few years so I went ahead and bought PS Elements a few weeks ago. And I have to say, that I am really having more fun with it than I thought I was going to. It is surprisingly satisfying my dark room cravings. And I can do it while watching TV. 

Pat,
Of course I was trying to bait you;) Anyway digital turned the corner only a few years ago, and it’s hard to justify the money on the darkroom when it’s much more simple to use CS3. I think I may have to commute to L.A. to make much of a living at the style of work I do. Redding is no art town, and it tends to suck the creativity right out of you. My plan is to try to create the environment here, but I first must be enabled myself in order to enable others. I only started trying to do this professionally 3 years ago. One of my brothers prof’s at UCLA is taken by one of my pieces and wants to meet with me. We’ll see where that goes.
later
Dalen

Dalen,

I know what you mean about certain environments draining your creativity. And I know for a fact that being around other creative artists does spark your own creativity. It is sort of odd how it works but it does. Several of my closest friends are writers, screenwriters, and singers. When I hang with them it somehow encourages my creativity in photography even though the discussion may be about music or writing. Moving to LA though—that is a big yuk for me. I love visiting down there but moving is another matter. Maybe you can get down there for smaller period of time, sort of get charged up, and come back until your batteries are drained again. That is, unless you like LA. One thing about LA, they are loaded with great churches down there.

I know you were not disputing the Jesus law thing but I just came across something related to that topic that was interesting.

I frequently read Dinesh Dsouza’s website and read his blogs. If you are into it, there are some really cool debate videos that you can watch on there. He often debates the world’s leading atheists, and I really enjoy it. Not everyone is really into that sort of thing but I like it.

This is his website:

http://www.dineshdsouza.com

I read this blog today regarding the Law and Jesus.

A Rabbi Talks With Jesus

Posted Feb 4th 2008 8:38AM by Dinesh D’Souza
Filed under: Religion, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism

Pope Benedict has a favorite rabbi, none other than the distinguished Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner. At first glance this is a puzzle. Many years ago Neusner wrote a book called A Rabbi Talks With Jesus. In it, he noted, “I explain why, if I had been in the land of Israel in the first century, I would not have joined the circle of Jesus’ disciples.”

Neusner sent his book to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, asking him to write a blurb. Ratzinger agreed, and then even more remarkably, praised the book again when he became Pope Benedict. More than a dozen pages of Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth are devoted to discussing Neusner’s argument. Benedict writes that Neusner’s work “has opened my eyes to the greatness of Jesus’ words and to the choice that the gospel places before us.”

To understand what Benedict is getting at, recall atheist Richard Dawkins’ famous claim that we are all atheists when it comes to other people’s gods. For instance, I am an atheist when it comes to the gods of the ancient Greeks and Romans. By the same token Neusner is an atheist when it comes to the Christian notion of the divinity.

Even so, Neusner’s treatment of Christ could not be more different than that of Dawkins. One of the main differences is that Dawkins is a biologist and Neusner is a scholar of ancient texts and history. Consequently Dawkins’ historical and literary understanding is at the eighth grade level, while Neusner brings to his work a depth and sophistication worthy of a man regarded as perhaps the greatest living scholar of Judaism.

Neusner discusses Christ as a great and pure man whose teachings, especially at the Sermon on the Mount, embody unforgettable insight and wisdom. Taking up the oldest of Jewish prescriptions, they interpret and transform them in a powerful and surprising way. And yet Neusner notes that Christ violates the old law, as when he says that actions are permitted on the Sabbath that were regarded as forbidden on the Sabbath. This is the basis of Neusner’s rejection of Christ as a fulfillment of the old covenant.

What gives Christ the right to change the old law? Neusner notes that Christ is not another liberal rabbi, seeking to bend the rules of the orthodox to make life easier for people. Rather, “Jesus’ claim to authority is at issue.” In effect, Christ claims to be “Lord of the Sabbath” and this provokes Neusner to ask, as if conversing with one of Christ’s disciples, “Is your master God?”

Pope Benedict finds this a penetrating question. “The issue that is really at the heart of the debate,” he writes, “is thus finally laid bare. Jesus understands himself as the Torah–as the word of God in person.” In other words, Jesus claims to speak with a divine authority. If Jesus is God, then obviously he has the right to say what the old law really means. So ultimately Jesus confronts us with the choice of accepting or rejecting his claim to divinity.

In the January issue of First Things, a Jewish writer Meir Soloveichik takes Rabbi Neusner to task for his admiring words about Jesus. Soloveichik charges that Neusner, despite his denials, seems to accept the divinity of Christ. Why? Here Soloveichik borrows a famous argument from C.S. Lewis. Lewis argued that since Christ claimed to be God, either he was speaking the truth or he was an astounding liar. Lewis insisted that Christ does not give us the option of considering him a great and wise human teacher. Rather, Christ compels us to take him at his word that he is the son of God, or rather reject him as an impostor and a fraud.

Soloveichik goes with the latter option, as indeed he says all Jews must. “If we deny Christ’s divinity,” he writes, “then we can respond with nothing short of shock and dismay when we read the words of a man who puts himself in the place of God.” Yet Soloveichik notes that this is not Neusner’s reaction. Neusner treats Christ with deep respect; yet who can have respect for a liar? Neusner writes as a friend of Christ; yet who can befriend an impostor and fraud? Soloveichik concludes that “even as Neusner argues that Jesus is mistaken about his divinity and authority, it follows from much that Neusner has written that Jesus must be God.”

Fascinating, isn’t it? I like this part: “Jesus understands himself as the Torah–as the word of God in person.” The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus confronts us with the choice of accepting or rejecting his claim to divinity. That decision made in faith is a done deal with Christians. No Christian will argue Jesus’ deity or virgin birth or His being the only Way, Truth and Life. My former pastor used to say, The Truth is not the ultimate exposition of doctrines delivered with irrefutably perfect logic to the natural intellectual mind. The Truth is a Person. Finding truth is the process of getting closer and closer to God, becoming His friend. Abraham was a friend of God. Paul says to speak the truth in love. I have also heard it said that the truth not spoken in love is not the truth (because the Truth is a Person and that same Person IS love). I hope I’m not getting too wordy here.

So no Christian argues Jesus’ deity. Here is a big rub with many Christians though: How do we test the spirits? I Jn 4:2-3 says every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and those that don’t are of the antichrist. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. The devils knew that AND confessed it when they asked Him if He was there to torment them before the time. We, the Body of Christ, are Jesus Christ come in the flesh, as He was God the Father come in the flesh. And this is how to test the spirits that come against us in our everyday lives: Do they acknowledge and minister to the growing Christ in us or do they beat us down to feel like struggling schmucks? Self-condemnation is a classic example of an antichrist spirit.
On moving to LA, aka Sodom, Dalen, that is a serious decision. I lived there 27 yrs, all as an adult, and I am here to tell you, it can be extremely polluting spiritually. Many dedicated believers take immorality quite lightly “because Jesus loved sinners and was not shocked by them”. Even when their own lives are clean, they tolerate the crap in other Christians’ lives without batting an eye, even patting themselves on the back for being “unreligious”. It’s the same pervasive influence that caused Lot to offer his own daughters to the men of Sodom to be gang-raped. As far as the arts are concerned, and my former husband was a talented dancer who barely missed joining Joffrey Ballet Co, it is a ruthless ladder of self-seeking, everyone stepping on everyone’s neck to get ahead, definitely NOT “putting your brother ahead of yourself” by a long shot. We sometimes visited a church in the Valley of many people who worked in the entertainment industry, Spirit-filled, tongues-speaking, born-again believers, and there was no lack of extra-marital affairs, the rationale for that being, “My spouse is not allowing me to be who I am in God.” If a movie role included a brief topless scene, it was like, “I’m not letting this affect my spirit before God. We’re in the world but not of it, because our spirits are born of God, and we take God into the workplace so God is glorified in whatever we do because God is in us” ….or something like that. Two comedians at this church worked the top comedy clubs and used plenty of expletives in their routine, because they were “unreligious”. Of course neither being religious/circumcised nor unreligious/uncircumcised avails anything but faith working through love. I’m just saying that getting the clear voice of God through the spiritual smog there can be challenging, and a general tolerance for all kinds of stuff starts to feel OK in your heart, and there is less conviction of the Spirit over time unless you really guard your heart 24/7. The prophet Kim Clement moved his outfit to LA and he has tremendous faith to take that whole realm for the Kingdom. More power to him. He’s something of a showman and I had to get over that to accept him in the Lord. I love the museums and restaurants and of course the beach, but the rest of that metropolis sucks. As soon as I got the scholarship to Boston University graduate school in 2000 we were so out of there. Wild horses couldn’t drag us back, except for a 3-5 day foray to visit family. And you’ll find that to be the case with a lot of people who used to live down there. I repent for bashing that church if it sounded like that, I hope everyone is doing well now, obeying God in their lives. No, it wasn’t Church on the Way in Van Nuys or any church you probably ever heard of.

Linda,

I wonder if you would like to expound on two of your statements regarding the body of Christ that you made in your last two posts.

You stated:

“And to expand it further, we are His Body, the FULLNESS of Him who fills all in all. Not this-little-light-of-mine, but He is the Head and we are the Body. It’s not good to divide the head from the body and I capitalize Body because the Body is Christ too. It’s not as simple as a written Word here and all us born again schmucks over there making whatever intellectual interpretations we feel entitled to make of the written Word.

You also stated:

“We, the Body of Christ, are Jesus Christ come in the flesh, as He was God the Father come in the flesh.”

I thought this time I would let you decide whether not this is really what you meant to say before commenting.

You have tried to clarify some of your statements in your earlier posts, and—just to be perfectly frank—you have change your story entirely on some of your other statements. So I thought you might want to expand, correct, or change your statements regarding the body of Christ.

To be honest, I have considered so much of your discourse to be so dishonest that I had decided to not engage you any further. But I am curious about your recent statements, and I would like to know if your views are held commonly by other individuals in your movement.

If you choose to respond, would you mind giving actual scriptural references? You allude to scriptures often but don’t seem that interested in proving your positions by scripture.

I am traveling out of state in a few days for a work project, so I will not be able to respond definitively for quite some time. So take your time, think it out, and use scripture to support your statements.