Is God a Baby Killer?

A few weeks ago I watched John McCain on The View, where he stated that he believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned. On this, I agree with John McCain.  Too bad he has little power to do anything about it.  In another interview he publicly stated that, if President, the Justices he’d nominate to the Supreme Court would NOT have to pass a litmus test in regards to their opinions on abortion.  In other words… business as usual.

18 hours ago I received an email from a woman who attends the same church I attend. She wrote, “I will be so bold as to say that anyone who calls themself a Christian should not be ABLE to cast a vote for a baby killer.”

She is, of course, referring to Barack Obama, who is Pro-Choice.

Abortion is an important topic in our country, and one on which most people have strong emotions one way or another.  My position is clear:  I hate abortion.  I don’t think a woman should be allowed to kill her unborn baby and not face the same consequences any other murderer faces.  And when it boils down to it, that’s exactly what Roe v Wade does:  removes the threat of earthly consequences from the Doctors who perform abortions and the women who CHOOSE to have them.

But, dear Christian, does the legality of abortion make it a viable option for you?  No?  Why not?  Could it possibly be because one’s “choice” is actually a condition of the heart? The ONLY way to rid this country of abortion is to change hearts!  No law will ever change a person’s heart.

Since he is not a Medical Doctor, I think it’s a safe bet to say that Barack Obama has never performed an abortion.

Unless he’s a freak of nature, I think it’s a safe bet to say that Barack Obama has never personally had an abortion, either.

But if Barack Obama is a “baby killer” because he espouses a belief that a pregnant woman should be allowed to make the decision as to whether or not she’ll terminate her pregnancy, if THAT is the criteria to make one a “baby killer”, then perhaps we should consider this question as well:

Is GOD HIMSELF a baby killer?

After all, God gave each of us free will to make choices in our lives, choices which ultimately lead to death, didn’t He?  And millions, perhaps billions, have made those choices, haven’t they?  So does allowing choice make God Himself a murderer?

I’d imagine that all who proclaim a belief in God are also convinced that He has the last word.  He makes the final judgment.  Those who make the decision to murder their children might escape punishment here on earth, but He dishes out eternal consequences.

Senator Obama is not responsible for the choices of pregnant women or the Doctors who perform abortions.  With my own ears I’ve heard him state the opinion that he personally detests the thought of abortion, but believes each woman has the right to make such a choice.  He may favor giving a “pass” from earthly consequences, but Barack Obama is not a baby killer any more than God is a baby killer.  In His infinite power, God could quite easily intercede and stop abortion, or murder, or rape… or any other man made, sin inspired malady.  But He doesn’t.  He allows us to make our choices, yet wishes us to know that there are consequences for our decisions.

There is also redemption available, isn’t there?  There is a cure for the heart condition that leads to a person being capable of ending the life of the innocent.  The final payment for our sins is eternal death.  We can make payment in person, or we can allow God Himself to pay it for us.  The choice is ours.  He’s opened an account in our name for the exact amount owed by each and every one of us for the sins we’ve committed…  sins that have the exact same result as that of a woman or doctor ending a child’s life:  eternal separation from the Creator of the Universe.  The payment in that account can be claimed by any person at any time in any place simply by CHOOSING to say, “I’ll take it!  Thank you SO MUCH!”.

When God made a personal appearance, in the flesh, right here on this earth He asked those of us who have accepted that payment to become His doctors,  offering the cure for this world’s bad heart condition to others.  It seems to me that sometimes we don’t see the bigger picture.  Some of us would rather scream at the young mother walking into an abortion clinic than to embrace her, tell her about the CURE, and offer to help her take care of the child in her womb. Others might think it’s a better use of our time to accuse a man like Senator Obama of being a baby killer based on his opinion that earthly consequences should be removed for those who make this very bad choice.

It’s much easier for us to sit around and complain about HIS opinion than to get out and make an effort to change hearts, isn’t it?  We’d rather sit around talking about who will outlaw what, ignoring more than 3 decades of history that shows no politician is going to do anything to overturn a “flawed decision”, than getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

I hate that “choice” just as much as anyone.  I also despise the idea of capital punishment because I don’t think it’s any man’s place to decide when any other person’s time to choose Eternal Life should run out.  My stomach turns at the choice that has lead to the killing of more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi women and children under the guise of “stopping terror.”

I read one of those email forwards going around in which the following was stated:  “I’m voting Republican because Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush Junior needed a ‘we can’t find Bin Laden’ diversion.” Although the intent of the original writer is clear, there’s a good point hidden inside that sentence… there is NO innocence in this election…  neither candidate running for President is innocent.  Barack Obama advocates allowing women to make the choice to end innocent life, yet John McCain supported the decision to ORDER our military personnel to end innocent life.

(that same email also stated, “I’m voting Republican because trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony” but that’s a whole other topic…  one can find hypocrisy wherever he looks)

In wrestling with my decision on which of these two men I’ll be casting my vote for I can’t help but think, “If he was a bit younger, I’d write in Billy Graham (who happens to be a lifelong Democrat by the way) as my choice for President.”  Under his watch, more than 2.5 million hearts from around the world have been united with the cure for what ails ‘em.  But since Reverend Graham is more interested in promoting Christ than politics, I doubt he’d accept the position even if it was offered.

When we make ignorant statements like the one that prompted this post we don’t do God any favors.  It’s okay to disagree with Senator Obama in regards to his opinions on abortion.  It’s okay to disagree with Senator McCain’s support of a deceptive decision to go to war.  But I think it’s divisive to bully others into voting our way by calling candidates “baby killers” (or “terrorists”).

Can we instead maintain civil discussion, vote our conscience, leave the “conscience” of others between them and God, and decide to unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition?  Is that too much to ask?

After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.

Please take the time to read this article, written by best selling Christian author Donald Miller and published today on his blog.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    This may be pushing the “extreme” button, but here is goes anyways.

    Voting for a President that supports abortion is really no different that voting for someone that would support lets say; the views of Hitler. I highly doubt Hitler was even near a gas chamber yet by his hand he sought to wipe out an entire race of people. Is what Hitler did any different that what our Government has done? Hitler never killed anyone with his own hands, but he held the door open to those gas chambers.

    Democrats and Republicans alike have stood by and watched the genocide of millions of unborn babies. The Republicans campaign on it, yet do nothing. They use that platform for political gain then it becomes just another thing on the list once they are elected. They have their hands dirty as well.

    All that being said; we are to vote for men and women that uphold Gods plan for life. I don’t see any way around it. Regardless of what else is going on in the world we are to vote based on our faith and trust in God. God will honor a Nation that follows His ways and honors His Word. While you may be right that regardless of who is elected, the chance of Roe v Wade being overturned is slight, Obama will most likely get two Supreme Court Nominees and he has made it clear they will be very liberal. Obama will also get no pressure at all in making those nominations. While I think McCain has been weak in this area as you pointed out, his own party will force him to the pro-life side on these appointments. Do you really see the Democrats pushing Obama for a pro-life nomination?

    There’s a TON of reasons to not vote for Obama and this is sure one of them. I won’t even get into his stand on Israel, taxes and Socialist views.

    Hope all is well Donny. Great topic!

    Jeff

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    This may be pushing the “extreme” button, but here is goes anyways.

    Voting for a President that supports abortion is really no different that voting for someone that would support lets say; the views of Hitler. I highly doubt Hitler was even near a gas chamber yet by his hand he sought to wipe out an entire race of people. Is what Hitler did any different that what our Government has done? Hitler never killed anyone with his own hands, but he held the door open to those gas chambers.

    Democrats and Republicans alike have stood by and watched the genocide of millions of unborn babies. The Republicans campaign on it, yet do nothing. They use that platform for political gain then it becomes just another thing on the list once they are elected. They have their hands dirty as well.

    All that being said; we are to vote for men and women that uphold Gods plan for life. I don’t see any way around it. Regardless of what else is going on in the world we are to vote based on our faith and trust in God. God will honor a Nation that follows His ways and honors His Word. While you may be right that regardless of who is elected, the chance of Roe v Wade being overturned is slight, Obama will most likely get two Supreme Court Nominees and he has made it clear they will be very liberal. Obama will also get no pressure at all in making those nominations. While I think McCain has been weak in this area as you pointed out, his own party will force him to the pro-life side on these appointments. Do you really see the Democrats pushing Obama for a pro-life nomination?

    There’s a TON of reasons to not vote for Obama and this is sure one of them. I won’t even get into his stand on Israel, taxes and Socialist views.

    Hope all is well Donny. Great topic!

    Jeff

  • ngoldfarb
  • ngoldfarb
  • Anonymous

    Hiter ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?

    God allows choice, even bad choices, because free will is impossible without “choice”. He then asks us to help change hearts by offering the cure, so people make the RIGHT choices… because they WANT to.

    When a man meets a new love interest his life changes without her saying a word. He changes to please her. He changes out of love. If we point the way to Jesus, and people fall in love with Him, abortion goes away simply because people want to please Him and therefore begin to make the right choices… by choice. :)

    Focusing our attention on legislating morality is NEVER going to point to Jesus as much as getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Hiter ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?

    God allows choice, even bad choices, because free will is impossible without “choice”. He then asks us to help change hearts by offering the cure, so people make the RIGHT choices… because they WANT to.

    When a man meets a new love interest his life changes without her saying a word. He changes to please her. He changes out of love. If we point the way to Jesus, and people fall in love with Him, abortion goes away simply because people want to please Him and therefore begin to make the right choices… by choice. :)

    Focusing our attention on legislating morality is NEVER going to point to Jesus as much as getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

  • Anonymous

    Ms Goldfarb,

    I ruined hundreds of lives by producing pornography. Do those who associate with me have a responsibility for that too?

    You realize Obama was 8 years old when Ayres did what he did, right?

    Now also realize that none of this has any bearing on the fact that the answer to what ails us is Jesus, and we have two men running for President who claim Him as their savior. That is wonderful, isn’t it?

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Ms Goldfarb,

    I ruined hundreds of lives by producing pornography. Do those who associate with me have a responsibility for that too?

    You realize Obama was 8 years old when Ayres did what he did, right?

    Now also realize that none of this has any bearing on the fact that the answer to what ails us is Jesus, and we have two men running for President who claim Him as their savior. That is wonderful, isn’t it?

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    One last thing Donny!

    You are so very right when you say “After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.”

    Yelling at young girls, calling them “baby killers” or worse should be unthinkable to those that are called of God. Doing ANYTHING but loving them and praying for them is wrong. We can have an opinion and we can state is clearly, however, as you said; healed hearts make all these issues go away.

    The Pro-Life movement has in many ways, had it ALL WRONG. They took the love out of it. They took the brokenness out of it. They forgot that for every aborted baby there is a young mother or father in desperate need of love and help. The movement has in many ways become self centered. They forget that in most cases there are two other people besides the baby that are being torn apart that day. Where is the love and support for them? We have sooooo missed the boat there.

    It’s true, we can not vote in morality. However, I firmly believe we are to vote for someone that upholds life and basic Christian values. I don’t want to be standing before God and ask to explain why I didn’t vote for life. That being sad… I don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I yelled at some girl on the day of her abortion either.

    I think God smiles on people who are in the healing hearts business. He certain he is not happy with those in the condemnation business.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    One last thing Donny!

    You are so very right when you say “After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.”

    Yelling at young girls, calling them “baby killers” or worse should be unthinkable to those that are called of God. Doing ANYTHING but loving them and praying for them is wrong. We can have an opinion and we can state is clearly, however, as you said; healed hearts make all these issues go away.

    The Pro-Life movement has in many ways, had it ALL WRONG. They took the love out of it. They took the brokenness out of it. They forgot that for every aborted baby there is a young mother or father in desperate need of love and help. The movement has in many ways become self centered. They forget that in most cases there are two other people besides the baby that are being torn apart that day. Where is the love and support for them? We have sooooo missed the boat there.

    It’s true, we can not vote in morality. However, I firmly believe we are to vote for someone that upholds life and basic Christian values. I don’t want to be standing before God and ask to explain why I didn’t vote for life. That being sad… I don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I yelled at some girl on the day of her abortion either.

    I think God smiles on people who are in the healing hearts business. He certain he is not happy with those in the condemnation business.

  • Anonymous

    Jeff,

    I also don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I voted for a person who supported a decision that killed thousands of innocent women and children in another country, and explaining why I didn’t care as much because they were far away in a different culture.

    This is my dilemma. Both sides have blood on their hands, in a way.

    Barack Obama is Pro Choice. He supports granting the right to women to end innocent life without consequences, but he would still rather they didn’t take advantage of that right.

    John McCain professes Pro-Life but voted to end life… not just to end it, but to COMMAND our military to end it. “Oh well… a few hundred thousand innocent lives being ended is just a casualty of war”. A war for what? Not for the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, that’s for sure. He’s over in Afghanistan.

    Nobody is innocent in this election. Neither of them. And just because McCain professes with his MOUTH that he’s pro-Life I’m supposed to vote for him? His actions have led to death. And he stated in the last debate with Barack that his Supreme Court decisions are not going to have a litmus test of the nominee’s opinion on abortion. That means he won’t care if they do or don’t support abortion.

    It would be business as usual, just like all of our other Republican Presidents since 1973′s R v W decision.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Jeff,

    I also don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I voted for a person who supported a decision that killed thousands of innocent women and children in another country, and explaining why I didn’t care as much because they were far away in a different culture.

    This is my dilemma. Both sides have blood on their hands, in a way.

    Barack Obama is Pro Choice. He supports granting the right to women to end innocent life without consequences, but he would still rather they didn’t take advantage of that right.

    John McCain professes Pro-Life but voted to end life… not just to end it, but to COMMAND our military to end it. “Oh well… a few hundred thousand innocent lives being ended is just a casualty of war”. A war for what? Not for the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, that’s for sure. He’s over in Afghanistan.

    Nobody is innocent in this election. Neither of them. And just because McCain professes with his MOUTH that he’s pro-Life I’m supposed to vote for him? His actions have led to death. And he stated in the last debate with Barack that his Supreme Court decisions are not going to have a litmus test of the nominee’s opinion on abortion. That means he won’t care if they do or don’t support abortion.

    It would be business as usual, just like all of our other Republican Presidents since 1973′s R v W decision.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    “Hitler ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?”

    Ordering? Supporting?

    I met a guy recently that was in jail on a Ministry trip. He was 22 years old and as part of a joke, stood with other friends and watched one of his friend beat a homeless man to death with a baseball bat. The friends supported the guy that did the beating by not trying to stop the beating that resulted in the death of that man. They were all found guilty and are currently spending 10 years in a Prison in Michigan because they stood by and did nothing. He didn’t order the killing of this man; he just stood by and did nothing.

    We have a voice by voting. It might be a small one, but we do indeed have one. While our vote might not be the vote that changes things, we are to vote in a way that would be pleasing to God. Standing by and doing nothing makes us as guilty as those kids that watched that guy being beat to death in Gods eyes.

    Yes, we have free will and even if Roe v Wade is overturned today, Abortion and Free Will without question will continue. Free will goes back to the Garden. A vote for life won’t change Free Will. Free Will is also a mental choice that happens in most cases, far before the actual sin. We have free will to either accept or reject God. Sin is just the byproduct of ones rejection of God.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    “Hitler ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?”

    Ordering? Supporting?

    I met a guy recently that was in jail on a Ministry trip. He was 22 years old and as part of a joke, stood with other friends and watched one of his friend beat a homeless man to death with a baseball bat. The friends supported the guy that did the beating by not trying to stop the beating that resulted in the death of that man. They were all found guilty and are currently spending 10 years in a Prison in Michigan because they stood by and did nothing. He didn’t order the killing of this man; he just stood by and did nothing.

    We have a voice by voting. It might be a small one, but we do indeed have one. While our vote might not be the vote that changes things, we are to vote in a way that would be pleasing to God. Standing by and doing nothing makes us as guilty as those kids that watched that guy being beat to death in Gods eyes.

    Yes, we have free will and even if Roe v Wade is overturned today, Abortion and Free Will without question will continue. Free will goes back to the Garden. A vote for life won’t change Free Will. Free Will is also a mental choice that happens in most cases, far before the actual sin. We have free will to either accept or reject God. Sin is just the byproduct of ones rejection of God.

  • Anonymous

    So, again, is God a murderer because he stands by allowing us to kill? He has the power to stop it, too, just like your friend in Michigan.

    Barack Obama isn’t a murderer because he supports one’s God given right to choose. He simply favors removing the earthly consequences.

    I don’t agree with him. But I am confident he is not a baby killer either.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    So, again, is God a murderer because he stands by allowing us to kill? He has the power to stop it, too, just like your friend in Michigan.

    Barack Obama isn’t a murderer because he supports one’s God given right to choose. He simply favors removing the earthly consequences.

    I don’t agree with him. But I am confident he is not a baby killer either.

  • John Snyder

    Ummmm… One slight flaw with this argument though. Couldn’t the same be said of murder? Murder is a choice and yet it is not legal. Just a thought.

  • John Snyder

    Ummmm… One slight flaw with this argument though. Couldn’t the same be said of murder? Murder is a choice and yet it is not legal. Just a thought.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    We agree on most everything here. I agree with you on the war issue. I hate it and if I had known that Bush was going to take us down this path I would have never voted for him. In 2004 I voted Kerry on the war issue alone.

    However, I see this particular election as different. There is FAR more at play here then the war or the economy. I’m not one to get all wrapped up in the “associations” and all that. That’s just politics; however, I am very concerned about an Obama Presidency. Something isn’t right and I don’t believe we have all the information on this guy yet. Let him prove himself and run in the next election.

    The abortion issue is one of the reasons I am not voting for him. However, it is not the only reason.

    Something is in the wind Donny. I am just staying clear of anything Obama. I supported the guy at one time… even flew his banners on pages I run. I pulled them about 4 months ago. I know McCain is far from perfect. I know he will most likely be a Bush Clone. I hate that, but I fear Obama more then I fear McCain. Sad place our Country is in when one can make a statement like that.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    We agree on most everything here. I agree with you on the war issue. I hate it and if I had known that Bush was going to take us down this path I would have never voted for him. In 2004 I voted Kerry on the war issue alone.

    However, I see this particular election as different. There is FAR more at play here then the war or the economy. I’m not one to get all wrapped up in the “associations” and all that. That’s just politics; however, I am very concerned about an Obama Presidency. Something isn’t right and I don’t believe we have all the information on this guy yet. Let him prove himself and run in the next election.

    The abortion issue is one of the reasons I am not voting for him. However, it is not the only reason.

    Something is in the wind Donny. I am just staying clear of anything Obama. I supported the guy at one time… even flew his banners on pages I run. I pulled them about 4 months ago. I know McCain is far from perfect. I know he will most likely be a Bush Clone. I hate that, but I fear Obama more then I fear McCain. Sad place our Country is in when one can make a statement like that.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, the same can be said of murder, John. As I said in the post, Obama has professed the opinion that those who commit this particular crime (abortion) should not face consequences. Our Justice system sometimes makes the same decision when it comes to murder: some murders are “justified”, such as those committed in self-defense.

    Obama seems to be amongst the millions who think a fetus isn’t human until it has a soul. That’s not a new idea. For centuries there have been people who have felt the same. Since they don’t see the fetus as “human” they don’t think a murder has been committed, and therefore don’t feel punishment is deserved.

    I disagree.

    But Obama’s opinions do not make him a murderer, just like it doesn’t make a murderer of a judge when he or she let’s off a person who has taken another life.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Yes, the same can be said of murder, John. As I said in the post, Obama has professed the opinion that those who commit this particular crime (abortion) should not face consequences. Our Justice system sometimes makes the same decision when it comes to murder: some murders are “justified”, such as those committed in self-defense.

    Obama seems to be amongst the millions who think a fetus isn’t human until it has a soul. That’s not a new idea. For centuries there have been people who have felt the same. Since they don’t see the fetus as “human” they don’t think a murder has been committed, and therefore don’t feel punishment is deserved.

    I disagree.

    But Obama’s opinions do not make him a murderer, just like it doesn’t make a murderer of a judge when he or she let’s off a person who has taken another life.

  • Anonymous

    Jeff,

    I, too, have started feeling that “something just isn’t right”, which is why I blogged a few days ago about not voting early.

    But I’m also not comfortable with John McCain, either. Not only his vote on the Iraqi war, but also the fact that he has changed a lot during this campaign. He has been known as a man who goes against his party when he feels the need to do so, but during this campaign he’s changed that and instead become a people pleaser. His decision to include Sarah Palin in his campaign is a perfect example: he chose a person he thought would get votes rather than someone who is actually qualified for the position (such as Mitt Romney, for example: I’d have no problem voting for a McCain/Romney ticket).

    So… is it going to be Republican politics as usual if he’s President, so that he can be re-elected? I don’t respect that.

    So I continue searching. It’s weird… moment by moment my thoughts are so back-and-forth. One minute I say to myself “I’m voting for Obama!” and the next I envision myself instead voting for McCain.

    I won’t know who I’m voting for until I actually do it, I guess… and then I’ll second guess myself no doubt.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Jeff,

    I, too, have started feeling that “something just isn’t right”, which is why I blogged a few days ago about not voting early.

    But I’m also not comfortable with John McCain, either. Not only his vote on the Iraqi war, but also the fact that he has changed a lot during this campaign. He has been known as a man who goes against his party when he feels the need to do so, but during this campaign he’s changed that and instead become a people pleaser. His decision to include Sarah Palin in his campaign is a perfect example: he chose a person he thought would get votes rather than someone who is actually qualified for the position (such as Mitt Romney, for example: I’d have no problem voting for a McCain/Romney ticket).

    So… is it going to be Republican politics as usual if he’s President, so that he can be re-elected? I don’t respect that.

    So I continue searching. It’s weird… moment by moment my thoughts are so back-and-forth. One minute I say to myself “I’m voting for Obama!” and the next I envision myself instead voting for McCain.

    I won’t know who I’m voting for until I actually do it, I guess… and then I’ll second guess myself no doubt.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    Donny, of course God isn’t a “murderer”. God gave Satan dominion over the earth and in that act was born the sinful nature we were all born with. (Genesis 1:26). Satan seeks to steal, kill and destroy; John 10:10. But we have this hope: John 16, 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”.

    We are not at war with God. Satan is our enemy. God is not in the abortion business, but you can bet that Satan is the Chairmen of the Board.

    I believe we are approaching the day when God says: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and calls us home. I truly believe that He sill be putting a stop to this.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    Donny, of course God isn’t a “murderer”. God gave Satan dominion over the earth and in that act was born the sinful nature we were all born with. (Genesis 1:26). Satan seeks to steal, kill and destroy; John 10:10. But we have this hope: John 16, 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”.

    We are not at war with God. Satan is our enemy. God is not in the abortion business, but you can bet that Satan is the Chairmen of the Board.

    I believe we are approaching the day when God says: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and calls us home. I truly believe that He sill be putting a stop to this.

  • john(right or left)

    alot of good points donny, as always. i completely agree with you that you cannot legislate morality and the highest ideal is the heart change. but i disagree that the american military purposely ORDERS the annihilation of innocent iraqis therefore putting all of this “blood” on our hands, similar to abortion. most of the time when you watch the news, its the suicide-bomber insurgents who are the ones killing them, their own people. if we are responsible for deaths, its clearly accidental. we have no qualm with the iraqi people themselves and we arent waging genocide on them. so, i dont think thats a good example to compare mccain and obama with.

    look, im not going to tell you who to vote for and i respect your decision with zero prejudice but we have a country to run as well. do you think outlawing drunk driving is legislating morality? alot of the times those drivers just do not care so someone had to do something about there carelessness. you may not EVER be able to change someones heart or play a part in that process because to change is up to the individual. but at the same time, laws must be upheld and people need to be protected. we are stewards of this country and though the ideal is to see a heart changed, alot of the times that does not happen. pro choice is sort of like allowing someone the “choice” to drive drunk, but legally. we cant get callous to the idea of abortion because its ALREADY legal. and its very easy to do that. we need to call it what it is. and id say from my own experience, and this addresses jeff’s letter as well, that all of the women ive met whove had abortions, they werent broken or desperate and thats because theyve had multiple abortions due to a careless lifestyle. im not saying there are not desperate women out there, which there is, but there are also alot of careless, heartless women as well. careless as the drunk driver

    heres a quote from “jane roe” herself:

    “It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the “right” to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, “Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn’t have been possible.” Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes.”

    now, thats the kind of choice we should not allow. thats called enabling.

  • john(right or left)

    alot of good points donny, as always. i completely agree with you that you cannot legislate morality and the highest ideal is the heart change. but i disagree that the american military purposely ORDERS the annihilation of innocent iraqis therefore putting all of this “blood” on our hands, similar to abortion. most of the time when you watch the news, its the suicide-bomber insurgents who are the ones killing them, their own people. if we are responsible for deaths, its clearly accidental. we have no qualm with the iraqi people themselves and we arent waging genocide on them. so, i dont think thats a good example to compare mccain and obama with.

    look, im not going to tell you who to vote for and i respect your decision with zero prejudice but we have a country to run as well. do you think outlawing drunk driving is legislating morality? alot of the times those drivers just do not care so someone had to do something about there carelessness. you may not EVER be able to change someones heart or play a part in that process because to change is up to the individual. but at the same time, laws must be upheld and people need to be protected. we are stewards of this country and though the ideal is to see a heart changed, alot of the times that does not happen. pro choice is sort of like allowing someone the “choice” to drive drunk, but legally. we cant get callous to the idea of abortion because its ALREADY legal. and its very easy to do that. we need to call it what it is. and id say from my own experience, and this addresses jeff’s letter as well, that all of the women ive met whove had abortions, they werent broken or desperate and thats because theyve had multiple abortions due to a careless lifestyle. im not saying there are not desperate women out there, which there is, but there are also alot of careless, heartless women as well. careless as the drunk driver

    heres a quote from “jane roe” herself:

    “It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the “right” to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, “Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn’t have been possible.” Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes.”

    now, thats the kind of choice we should not allow. thats called enabling.

  • http://www.myspace.com/dayltfades Celeste

    Again, I say:

    Sounds like you can support your choice to vote for Obama quite well, Donny. The abortion issue is not the primary reason why I am not voting for him–I have voted for democrats in the past. To be painfully honest, I do not consider myself a very political person. I vote from my gut. And I can completely understand why some people would want to criticize me for admitting that, but… “oh, well.”

    I think you know who you should vote for. And I still wonder–since you can so logically and intelligently state your view in a detailed blog–why you would have any doubts at this point. You’re a good man. Go out and do what you feel is right.

  • http://www.myspace.com/dayltfades Celeste

    Again, I say:

    Sounds like you can support your choice to vote for Obama quite well, Donny. The abortion issue is not the primary reason why I am not voting for him–I have voted for democrats in the past. To be painfully honest, I do not consider myself a very political person. I vote from my gut. And I can completely understand why some people would want to criticize me for admitting that, but… “oh, well.”

    I think you know who you should vote for. And I still wonder–since you can so logically and intelligently state your view in a detailed blog–why you would have any doubts at this point. You’re a good man. Go out and do what you feel is right.

  • Anonymous

    And so, John (r or l), will Senator McCain be receiving your vote based on his opinions on abortion, or because of other reasons?

    My point with this thread is that Obama is not a baby killer because of his opinions on this issue. I’m tired of hearing scare mongering by Christians. It’s pathetic. Barack Obama has openly stated that Jesus Christ is his Savior, even though that profession might offend voters of different faith.

    If you like McCain’s economic policies better than Obama’s, if you think he’s more experienced and in a better position to lead, or any number of other reasons, I can respect that.

    But it is my opinion that those who vote for him simply because he states Roe v Wade was a “flawed decision” (yet also states that any nominees he makes to the Supreme Court won’t have to agree with him on that) are making an inexcusably ignorant voting decision. There needs to be more depth, in my opinion.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    And so, John (r or l), will Senator McCain be receiving your vote based on his opinions on abortion, or because of other reasons?

    My point with this thread is that Obama is not a baby killer because of his opinions on this issue. I’m tired of hearing scare mongering by Christians. It’s pathetic. Barack Obama has openly stated that Jesus Christ is his Savior, even though that profession might offend voters of different faith.

    If you like McCain’s economic policies better than Obama’s, if you think he’s more experienced and in a better position to lead, or any number of other reasons, I can respect that.

    But it is my opinion that those who vote for him simply because he states Roe v Wade was a “flawed decision” (yet also states that any nominees he makes to the Supreme Court won’t have to agree with him on that) are making an inexcusably ignorant voting decision. There needs to be more depth, in my opinion.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com/ Jeff

    I agree on the Palin thing as well. Just a move to get votes. She clearly isnt the best cloice. Romney, Huckabee, either one would have helped his cause and shown more stablity.

    When its said I done, in my mind, something far bigger is up if Obama is our next President. Far bigger then the abortion issue. Like you, I cant put a finger on it, but im confident something bigger is going on there.

    Im voting for McCain. He is proven, tried and tested. While I dont agree with him on everything. We do know what we are getting. With Obama, I dont think we have a clue on what is in that package.

  • http://www.obadiah1.com Jeff

    I agree on the Palin thing as well. Just a move to get votes. She clearly isnt the best cloice. Romney, Huckabee, either one would have helped his cause and shown more stablity.

    When its said I done, in my mind, something far bigger is up if Obama is our next President. Far bigger then the abortion issue. Like you, I cant put a finger on it, but im confident something bigger is going on there.

    Im voting for McCain. He is proven, tried and tested. While I dont agree with him on everything. We do know what we are getting. With Obama, I dont think we have a clue on what is in that package.

  • Anonymous

    Celeste, gut feeling is what it just might come down to for me too.

    * My “intellect” tells me that Obama would be a better choice.

    * My “hope” tells me Obama is a better choice.

    * Sarah Palin tells me to vote for Obama (Sarah as Pres is SCARY).

    * But, to be honest, my GUT tells me to punch the card for John McCain.

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Celeste, gut feeling is what it just might come down to for me too.

    * My “intellect” tells me that Obama would be a better choice.

    * My “hope” tells me Obama is a better choice.

    * Sarah Palin tells me to vote for Obama (Sarah as Pres is SCARY).

    * But, to be honest, my GUT tells me to punch the card for John McCain.

  • Barb

    Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws? The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I agree wholeheartedly that we should “unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition” as you said in your blog.

    Anyway, I guess I’m voting for McCain not just because of the abortion issue but others as well. I wish however, there were more viable choices. All anyone can do is vote their convictions which I am sure you will do. Our hope is in the goodness of God and not in any man. As my mom would say “something will work out.”

    Blessings to you.

  • Barb

    Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws? The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I agree wholeheartedly that we should “unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition” as you said in your blog.

    Anyway, I guess I’m voting for McCain not just because of the abortion issue but others as well. I wish however, there were more viable choices. All anyone can do is vote their convictions which I am sure you will do. Our hope is in the goodness of God and not in any man. As my mom would say “something will work out.”

    Blessings to you.

  • john(right or left)

    no, it isnt the abortion thing alone. although thats alot of it but at the same time that isnt the ONLY issue thats important and i realize that. i cant really put words to it, but as someone posted above and also in jeff’s last post, theres something in my gut that i fear more with obama than mccain. and theres just something in the air. until someone posted it, i didnt really know how to describe it. so in those regards, id rather take my gamble with mccain.

    obama is basically an ACLU lawyer, thats what civil rights lawyer means nowadays, who went on to become a senator. now the idea of electing that and giving him possibly a super majority in the senate and the house leaves plenty for the imagination in as far as the potential to change the cultural landscape of this country. there are alot of political thinkers who are influenced by the way europe operates. i feel very strongly that obama is along those lines.

    donny we are all fear mongers in this election, choosing between what we are most afraid of happening.

  • john(right or left)

    no, it isnt the abortion thing alone. although thats alot of it but at the same time that isnt the ONLY issue thats important and i realize that. i cant really put words to it, but as someone posted above and also in jeff’s last post, theres something in my gut that i fear more with obama than mccain. and theres just something in the air. until someone posted it, i didnt really know how to describe it. so in those regards, id rather take my gamble with mccain.

    obama is basically an ACLU lawyer, thats what civil rights lawyer means nowadays, who went on to become a senator. now the idea of electing that and giving him possibly a super majority in the senate and the house leaves plenty for the imagination in as far as the potential to change the cultural landscape of this country. there are alot of political thinkers who are influenced by the way europe operates. i feel very strongly that obama is along those lines.

    donny we are all fear mongers in this election, choosing between what we are most afraid of happening.

  • john(right or left)

    and i think the idea you are round-a-bout implying about obama is this sort of non-judgmental, compassionate allowance for human free-will to do its thing. i see that quality in you donny but not in someone who goes out of his way to planned parenthood conferences as the starring speaker. thats not a compassionate respect for free-will, thats an extreme error in judgement. one of my intellectual heroes, dr john lennox who happens to be a christian, never at any time wishes to force an atheist to believe as he does, in turn, compassionately respecting his/her right to believe as they wish. i admire that, but at the same time you dont see lennox going out of his way promoting peter singers materialist/atheist ideas that newborn babies have no more value than pigs.

  • john(right or left)

    and i think the idea you are round-a-bout implying about obama is this sort of non-judgmental, compassionate allowance for human free-will to do its thing. i see that quality in you donny but not in someone who goes out of his way to planned parenthood conferences as the starring speaker. thats not a compassionate respect for free-will, thats an extreme error in judgement. one of my intellectual heroes, dr john lennox who happens to be a christian, never at any time wishes to force an atheist to believe as he does, in turn, compassionately respecting his/her right to believe as they wish. i admire that, but at the same time you dont see lennox going out of his way promoting peter singers materialist/atheist ideas that newborn babies have no more value than pigs.

  • m eugene king

    And what about after the child goes through his or her hell of not being wanted?
    Children lose their value as pawns as soon as they are of age to be a pawn for another kind of exploitation.
    Then the government says, you are valued. Greetings! But if you are damaged mentally from the army, not just the war, mind you but shi_you are forced to crawl around in and with people you have nothing in common with. It’s their music forced on everyone else, their loud mouths, critical and filled with curse words and a general disrespect for human beings in general. the first sergeant is first only inh his ability to threaten and cut you down.
    Then, what use is the human for the church but contribution from his wallet? Who cares for him or her then? Old age is worse. Old people here are treated like animals, used and victimized by everyone from the laundry lady to the house cleaner. If you complain they say you are crazy. So get off yor high horse. Christianity isn’t any better than any other organization.. Save those babys for you christian schools and prepare them to go off to war, then to work in your stupid factories that make stupid things for stupid people to buy.
    We are now going to pay for the excesses that began with that eitist, alzheimer ridden Reagan, who took the controls off the banking system for his pals and cronies. the banks ARE 100 TRILLION IN DEBT and there will be no bail out on this one.These are the derivitive investments that think the people can bail them out on again. You my Christian friend, will soon wonder how you will feed your family, let alone more and more mouths to feed out in the world.

    After the R party put the screws to the people again, they come right back for more and can ‘t wait to get another one in the white house–God help our children-and their children. We have made so many world enemies that we will stand alone when the derivitive melt-dow occurs.

    When we have a chance, finally to put a decent and qualified human being in office, it’s the low road we choose. At a time when we need the best and brightest, racisim wins and an old man and a trailer trash, grubby opportunist have a good chance of winning this election.
    Just what we needed. More red and blue and the red white and blue be dammed.

  • http://genem1@wordpress.com m eugene king

    And what about after the child goes through his or her hell of not being wanted?
    Children lose their value as pawns as soon as they are of age to be a pawn for another kind of exploitation.
    Then the government says, you are valued. Greetings! But if you are damaged mentally from the army, not just the war, mind you but shi_you are forced to crawl around in and with people you have nothing in common with. It’s their music forced on everyone else, their loud mouths, critical and filled with curse words and a general disrespect for human beings in general. the first sergeant is first only inh his ability to threaten and cut you down.
    Then, what use is the human for the church but contribution from his wallet? Who cares for him or her then? Old age is worse. Old people here are treated like animals, used and victimized by everyone from the laundry lady to the house cleaner. If you complain they say you are crazy. So get off yor high horse. Christianity isn’t any better than any other organization.. Save those babys for you christian schools and prepare them to go off to war, then to work in your stupid factories that make stupid things for stupid people to buy.
    We are now going to pay for the excesses that began with that eitist, alzheimer ridden Reagan, who took the controls off the banking system for his pals and cronies. the banks ARE 100 TRILLION IN DEBT and there will be no bail out on this one.These are the derivitive investments that think the people can bail them out on again. You my Christian friend, will soon wonder how you will feed your family, let alone more and more mouths to feed out in the world.

    After the R party put the screws to the people again, they come right back for more and can ‘t wait to get another one in the white house–God help our children-and their children. We have made so many world enemies that we will stand alone when the derivitive melt-dow occurs.

    When we have a chance, finally to put a decent and qualified human being in office, it’s the low road we choose. At a time when we need the best and brightest, racisim wins and an old man and a trailer trash, grubby opportunist have a good chance of winning this election.
    Just what we needed. More red and blue and the red white and blue be dammed.

  • http://www.myspace.com/nannygrama Nancy

    Apparently Barack Obama studied the techniques of Saul Alinsky? The founder of community organizing and the writer of “Rules for Radicals,” a book he dedicated to Lucifer???????
    Yikes.

  • http://www.myspace.com/nannygrama Nancy

    Apparently Barack Obama studied the techniques of Saul Alinsky? The founder of community organizing and the writer of “Rules for Radicals,” a book he dedicated to Lucifer???????
    Yikes.

  • Anonymous

    Nancy,

    I’ve read (studied) the works of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens… men who don’t believe God even exists.

    Is that a “yikes” too?

  • http://www.donnysramblings.com Donny Pauling

    Nancy,

    I’ve read (studied) the works of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens… men who don’t believe God even exists.

    Is that a “yikes” too?

  • Tonya

    I remember weeping the night that Bill Clinton was elected into office. With such an ungodly man in the White House, I knew for sure that our country now really was going to hell in a hand basket and that he was going to take away all my rights as a Christian. In 2004, I reluctantly voted for George Bush. I voted for him mainly for the sake of our nation’s security, and because of the Supreme Ct justices he would likely appoint. I had doubts about him, but in my gut he seemed the safest of the candidates.

    It’s interesting now in retrospect — Clinton, while he certainly embarrassed himself and his family during his presidency, did not destroy the US nearly like I thought he would. On the other hand, I personally am as embarrassed by George Bush as I have been by any self-proclaimed Christian. I pity him for the web of lies he has told and sold to us the American people. My husband and I just watched a PBS documentary about the way he and Cheney handled/manipulated the whole torture issue. All facts — no Michael Moore stuff. Talk about cover up — the men are war criminals, plain and simple. How will God’s judgment be leveled at their deeds?

    The point is, we are broken and fallible humans. While most gut instincts hold some element of truth in their basis, that doesn’t alone make them true and reliable. My instincts, while they may be on target at times, will always be subject to my experiences, my fears, my prejudices, what I read that morning, etc. etc. While they serve us well at times, I don’t think a decision such as this one should boil down to that, no matter who you’re voting for.

    With all the conspiracy theories flying around these days, it is easy to feel “something just isn’t right with Obama.” Maybe in the end, that will even turn out to be right. If so, I have to remember that God is still on the throne. He is the only One who truly knows and is the Truth. If it turns out that Obama is the spawn of Satan as some would believe, or even the anti-Christ, then God already knows that and has known it, actually written it into history, from since before the beginning of time. I don’t believe His intent is for us to live in fear and go around promoting fear or using scare tactics either.

    When I read the comments on your page, Ms. Goldfarb, I hear more than “just the facts” — I hear ranting and raving. If you have read Obama’s “Dreams” book, you know that the part you quoted is completely taken out of context and misrepresentative of what he is trying to communicate. After even that one point, how am I supposed to find you credible? Instead you sound just like any other fear monger. (Fear mongers tend to paint the world in very black and white terms — the bad guys are the “monsters” and the good guys are the heroes — or the evangelicals, if you’re a Christian. Yet being in ministry where I see all sides of people, I have found people are rarely that simple.) If Obama is really as scary as you propose, I don’t think you have to add in the misleading stuff — the truth can speak for itself. It sounds so like the “sound the alarm” type of tactics Bush has employed his entire presidency. Ironic considering he’s turned out to be our most dangerous president yet. I think Americans are tired of being “bullied” by the “truth” — I, for one, am more likely to listen when people communicate rationally and let the truth stand for itself.

    Donny, I really appreciate all the discussions you have opened up during this election, and how you have been real with both your thoughts and questions. You’ve set a good example of someone who is searching out answers, but in a rational way. That said, on Tuesday, I really believe that God is even less concerned with who you choose than with your choice to continue to trust in Him. Blessings, and sorry this was so long!

  • Tonya

    I remember weeping the night that Bill Clinton was elected into office. With such an ungodly man in the White House, I knew for sure that our country now really was going to hell in a hand basket and that he was going to take away all my rights as a Christian. In 2004, I reluctantly voted for George Bush. I voted for him mainly for the sake of our nation’s security, and because of the Supreme Ct justices he would likely appoint. I had doubts about him, but in my gut he seemed the safest of the candidates.

    It’s interesting now in retrospect — Clinton, while he certainly embarrassed himself and his family during his presidency, did not destroy the US nearly like I thought he would. On the other hand, I personally am as embarrassed by George Bush as I have been by any self-proclaimed Christian. I pity him for the web of lies he has told and sold to us the American people. My husband and I just watched a PBS documentary about the way he and Cheney handled/manipulated the whole torture issue. All facts — no Michael Moore stuff. Talk about cover up — the men are war criminals, plain and simple. How will God’s judgment be leveled at their deeds?

    The point is, we are broken and fallible humans. While most gut instincts hold some element of truth in their basis, that doesn’t alone make them true and reliable. My instincts, while they may be on target at times, will always be subject to my experiences, my fears, my prejudices, what I read that morning, etc. etc. While they serve us well at times, I don’t think a decision such as this one should boil down to that, no matter who you’re voting for.

    With all the conspiracy theories flying around these days, it is easy to feel “something just isn’t right with Obama.” Maybe in the end, that will even turn out to be right. If so, I have to remember that God is still on the throne. He is the only One who truly knows and is the Truth. If it turns out that Obama is the spawn of Satan as some would believe, or even the anti-Christ, then God already knows that and has known it, actually written it into history, from since before the beginning of time. I don’t believe His intent is for us to live in fear and go around promoting fear or using scare tactics either.

    When I read the comments on your page, Ms. Goldfarb, I hear more than “just the facts” — I hear ranting and raving. If you have read Obama’s “Dreams” book, you know that the part you quoted is completely taken out of context and misrepresentative of what he is trying to communicate. After even that one point, how am I supposed to find you credible? Instead you sound just like any other fear monger. (Fear mongers tend to paint the world in very black and white terms — the bad guys are the “monsters” and the good guys are the heroes — or the evangelicals, if you’re a Christian. Yet being in ministry where I see all sides of people, I have found people are rarely that simple.) If Obama is really as scary as you propose, I don’t think you have to add in the misleading stuff — the truth can speak for itself. It sounds so like the “sound the alarm” type of tactics Bush has employed his entire presidency. Ironic considering he’s turned out to be our most dangerous president yet. I think Americans are tired of being “bullied” by the “truth” — I, for one, am more likely to listen when people communicate rationally and let the truth stand for itself.

    Donny, I really appreciate all the discussions you have opened up during this election, and how you have been real with both your thoughts and questions. You’ve set a good example of someone who is searching out answers, but in a rational way. That said, on Tuesday, I really believe that God is even less concerned with who you choose than with your choice to continue to trust in Him. Blessings, and sorry this was so long!